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Ooo Ooo! I envision a new legal defense forming "Right-Brained" defense. Cool.
I am a bit of a right-brained person myself. My passion is building. The permit process is way cumbersom. I have often and knowingly "thumbed my nose" at the legal system. Permit by Stanley. I may use that right-brained defense. Hmmm....
Dan
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Joined: Jun 2003
Definitely community supported, with all those dwelling and commercial activity Village Green only pays $100/year property tax.
PARID: 120090340000
VILLAGE GREEN SOCIETY LTD
Tax Details 2009
Description Period Tax Paid / Adjust Penalty Paid Interest Paid Other
Beginning Tax 2009-1 50.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
Payment 2009-1 0.00 -50.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
Beginning Tax 2009-2 50.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
Payment 2009-2 0.00 -50.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
Total: 100.00 -100.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
David
Ninole Resident
Ninole Resident
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Where the thumbing the nose at the people thing really comes in is where and how for profit development interests had the law written and the zoning arranged at their behest and for their benefit-- in such a matter that "for profit, but bad for the community" stuff is "legal." Surely we can see that, right? Does anybody really deny this reality? Not only that, these interests enjoy the added icing on the cake of making sure the "not for profit, but good for the community" stuff can't compete(for property) because of the cost of compliance. Lastly, sure the law is written so poorly that it's incapable of making any distinction between the net societal values of a local farmers market and shopping mall so that one can't advocate for one without advocating for the other--that's pretty tricky dicky too. Win all the way around. Let the little people do your dirty work for you, eh?
How well has this state of affairs worked out for us? Anybody recently look at the state budget? Anybody take a look at the level of services the state can afford to supply to the community in spite of the "economic growth" of the last decade? Is this "legal" state of affairs really benefiting anyone but a few profiteers?
Look at the bottom line here. Somebody got their knickers in a twist and complained. They didn't have a right to complain about the noise, although that's what bothered them, apparently, as apparently it wasn't noisy enough to be in violation of anything--so they had to prowl around for other violations instead. And they found something to complain about. As a result, we're threatening to do away with one of the few demonstratively successful and constructive projects in Puna under the guise of protecting the questionable legitimacy of a system of governance and compliance that has proven to completely unsuccessful and is now wholly bankrupt--very near the point of being completely incapable of providing any but the most core services that the community requires, and those in a very spotty fashion. At the end of the day once all the crap about various tangential issues is cut away, this is the core essence of what's going on.
This isn't about anything other than denying people the right to take care of their own needs. If the law prohibits people taking care of their basic needs, the law needs to change. If it doesn't, no doubt we'll continue on the same self-destructive path--where unscrupulous for profit interests set the rules and capitalize on them, privatize the social good, and impoverish the community. All "legally" of course. And as people attempt to cope in the manner that they're able, legal or not, and we'll revisit this issue, needlessly, again and again. Eventually, the bankruptcy of current our system will be so undeniable that the right to provide for oneself will be seen not framed in the context of legality, but as a basic matter of human rights. At that point things will undoubtedly change. It would be a lot smarter if we made our changes sooner than later.
http://sensiblesimplicity.lefora.com/
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I'm confused?
Are you saying that development interest have taken agricultural zones land and rezoned it for commercial use to deny communities the ability to use the land as zoned? If so, I think the opposite impact is true because commercially zoned land would allow these community activities without the need for a SUP or even a use permit. So I don't think that’s what you meant.
Or,
Are you saying that development interest have taken commercially zoned land and rezoned them to agricultural to keep community groups from having a place to operate? If so, as far back as I can see the land has always been agricultural and it's the people (AKA Community) that has skirted the regulations by making it predominantly residential and not agricultural. So I don't think that's what you meant.
Or,
Are you saying that these agricultural lands that the people (AKA community) with full knowledge that there were no services, community groups, or places for non-profits, yet they purchased it anyway, and now expect these thing should be available when they were never there in the first place? If so, the lack of these items were there from the start and if people (AKA community) ignored that reality, that’s a dumb mistake on their part. So I don't think that's what you meant.
I know this is hard to grasp, but the process for a "for profit" entity to get a use or special use permit is harder than for a non-profit. Most of the things non-profits do are allowed under the regulations so long as they don't cross the line.
When non-profits apply for use or special use permits, they know full well what limitations exist, what they are allowed and not allowed to do, what activities will force the County to act, and what needs to be done to expand any provisions of that permit. There is no secret police waiting to pounce on them and suddenly pull a provision out of a hat to everyone’s surprise. Everything is laid out in black and white and these non-profits AGREED to it. So reality is, the County grants greater latitude to these nonprofits community groups above and beyond what any development interest could get.
Now on a side note, I know being on Hawaii things are a bit slow and I assume the news is also very very slow. So as an FYI, the fiscal issues facing Hawaii County, well you won't believe this, but it's happening all over the US. Yes, I kid you not, from Maine to California, from Texas to Montana, from Alaska to Florida. ALL governments are facing fiscal problems. Now, get a load of this, even foreign countries are experiencing the fiscal crunch. I do believe the Hawaii Hilo Tribune has reported this, but who knows, news seem to travel very slowly on Hawaii. But trust me on this, Hawaii County is not standing alone and is in the company of almost every village, town, city, borough, parish, province, county, state and yes, even the federal government.
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quote:
Originally posted by JWFITZ
Look at the bottom line here. Somebody got their knickers in a twist and complained. They didn't have a right to complain about the noise, although that's what bothered them, apparently, as apparently it wasn't noisy enough to be in violation of anything--so they had to prowl around for other violations instead. And they found something to complain about. As a result, we're threatening to do away with one of the few demonstratively successful and constructive projects in Puna under the guise of protecting the --- blaa, blaa, blaa.---
Yet you have the right to complain about everything, but you're saying another CITIZEN and COMMUNITY RESIDENT who believes they are negatively being impacted by this doesn’t?
Talk about a hypocritical statement!
Just like you have the right to complain about barking dogs, loose chickens, dusty roads, congested streets, high prices at markets, and the lack of community space, the person next to SPACE has an EQUAL RIGHT to complain. Welcome to the U.S.A.
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I have never understood the mindset of people who think the law doesn't apply to them.
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Bob, thank you for elevating the debate. I really appreciate it.
quote:
To the average person they see drum circles, but the regulations (that the people want for their protection) sees a theater or entertainment venue. Some see farmers markets, but the regulations (that the people want for their protection) may see a retail store. And the art studio, may by regulations (that the people want for their protection) be listed as an art gallery/museum or retail operation. So a developer isn’t looking at what people call it, they look at what the County must classify it as to stay within the regulations (that the people want for their protection) that applies to the codes. On one hand the people want those regulations and on the other hand they don’t want the regulations. Unfortunately they can’t have it both ways.
quote:
I know this is hard to grasp, but the process for a "for profit" entity to get a use or special use permit is harder than for a non-profit. Most of the things non-profits do are allowed under the regulations so long as they don't cross the line.
Isn't this contradictory? SPACE is a non-profit. Why can't it do things that we wouldn't allow Walmart to do in Seaview?
Separate topic:
quote:
Yet you have the right to complain about everything, but you're saying another CITIZEN and COMMUNITY RESIDENT who believes they are negatively being impacted by this doesn’t?
There's a freedom to do things, and there's a freedom from things. I get that people should have freedom from noise. I also get that I have the freedom to make noise. If only there was some middle ground...
I have the freedom to complain, got it. I also have a request: I want freedom from being accused of crazy stuff. I believe I have a legal protection from, say, neighborly accusations that I'm brewing meth in my home. That's just crazy. It's slander and/or libel, and it is illegal. There are loonier accusations, read the first part of this topic.
This isn't about noise complaints. Petty neighbors escalating their pissant squabbles by calling every government agency with a phone number is what's going on here.
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Mr.Way's attitude of dismissal toward anyone who does not see things his way is indicative of the mindset behind the pro-SPACE force. To employ language such as petty and pissant further proves how little regard M.Way has for his neighbors and their very legitimate complaints. Furthermore, if anyone should be concerned about libel, it is various members of SPACE/Village Green, who have made false and disparaging remarks in writing, online, and in reports to government agencies.
You want freedom to make noise? You have it, within the law. Don't like the confines of the law? Move someplace where you can make all the noise you want, say 5,000 acres in Alaska.
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Any chance this could be taken to a civil court? It seems the only way forward to me. The alternative is for people to accuse and counter-accuse on an internet forum. It's entertaining but won't fix anything.
Tom
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quote:
Originally posted by terry.way...
This isn't about noise complaints. Petty neighbors escalating their pissant squabbles by calling every government agency with a phone number is what's going on here.
So I was lucky (or unlucky) enough to say "WOW, I had a great time at the event at SPACE on Feb 5th.".... the person I was telling is an old timer who has a chronic debilitating illness. They enlightened me about the issue and the lack of sleep they got that particular weekend while I was enjoying the event.
NOTE: they are not in the complaint business, so they have stood on the sidelines. They have filed no complaints with any agencies etc. They are not going to express their opinion on the 27th.
They are not petty, or jealous or any of the things that those who want SPACE to observe the noise issues have been accused of. They are just physically ill. They have made a point of staying out the fight because in their ethical mind they told me - "if it was 10 years ago, when I was well, I would have been right in there making noise and attending events." This put the whole thing in a different perspective for me personally.
At the same time, I just heard how many people are boycotting Kalani's Ecstatic Dance because now it is a $10 charge. Wait! Was not the Special Use Permits and Zoming just an issue in mainly the same crowd? Same people fighting for the right to for music and dance on Sunday at 10:30 AM? What I heard is now that it is $10 (probably to recoup the filing fees, hefty attorney fees, etc to fight this battle), the people do not want to pay that.
I am not trying to riot - I am just confused.
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