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quote:
Originally posted by terry.way
Isn't this contradictory? SPACE is a non-profit. Why can't it do things that we wouldn't allow Walmart to do in Seaview?
No, as it would apply to Seaview, I don’t think there is any land zoned for any convenience, grocery, or retail in the immediate area so they wouldn’t be able to operate at all.
But lets say for discussion, there were two lots with the appropriate zoning that would allow a store or community center to operate with a SUP. Both would have to conform to issues related to the activities. The store will receive greater scrutiny over traffic since it’s more likely they would be having trucks delivery goods on a more frequent basis. The community center probably would not be requesting the same higher density lighting as the store. The store will also have greater parking requirements than the community center. Even where the trash is stored will have to be looked at. Because the store has greater marketing needs, what they will want will probably have a greater chance of negatively impacting the community. Because a store will have a greater negative impact, they will have a harder time getting approval for everything they want.
Remember, community functions are allowed under the current zoning and that’s why SPACE did get a SUP. So talk about this is because the county is not addressing the community needs are false.
quote:
Originally posted by terry.way
This isn't about noise complaints. Petty neighbors escalating their pissant squabbles by calling every government agency with a phone number is what's going on here.
The County conducted an inspection based on a complaint. They conduct many of these inspections every day. If the complain yields no violations, the County takes no action. Like I said many times before, they can’t just pull some condition out of air and say it’s a violation. They have to look at what is allowed and not allowed and if a complaint falls within what’s allowed, the County can’t do anything but suggest they be mindful of their neighbors. But if the inspection reveals violations of the SUP that the permit holder agreed upon, the county has a duty to take action. No violation - No Action! Violations - Action! Very simple.
What many are ignoring, putting on blinders, or just plain old not accepting is everything in that permit was agreed upon by the applicants. The permit was a Speed Limit, Stop, and a Fire Hydrant. They new if they exceeded that speed limit they would be in violation, they knew if they drove through the stop sign they would be in violation. They knew if they parked in front of the fire hydrant it would be a violation. Now they are saying that because they are a teacher going to school, the good of teaching the kids (the good of the community) outweighs the risk of speeding, running a stop sign and parking in front of a fire hydrant.
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I live 3/4 of a mile away from SPACE "as the bird flies". The sound from their activities does travel and I hear it. Sometimes at night it can be disturbing to my peace and quiet.
I don't complain because mostly I can ignore it. But . . . I would really hate to live closer to SPACE. Glad there's as much space as there is between them and me!
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Bob, again, thank you, very helpful.
I'm interested in this forum, mostly, because of the manner of the complaint, and not the fact of the complaint. quote:
The permit was a Speed Limit, Stop, and a Fire Hydrant.
I'm not that happy about the speed limit as an example, because we all break the speed limit. I don't think anyone really obeys the stop signs, either.
Get a speeding ticket, grumble, pay it, in the morning it doesn't seem as unfair and dastardly, and we get over it. It's a different thing when someone on the road complains to the police about our erratic driving, and then we get the ticket. The world would be a very different place if we all called 911 every time we experienced Road Rage. The police would be too busy with everyone's pissant vendettas. Pissant, pissant, pissant: my new favorite word. quote:
Remember, community functions are allowed under the current zoning and that’s why SPACE did get a SUP. So talk about this is because the county is not addressing the community needs are false.
Except that the popular community functions SPACE provides may be curtailed. So, I can't agree with the above statement.
It's backwards here. The African Drumming, which perhaps was the cause of the bulk of the noise complaints, and the event that radicalized my immediate neighbor... was a class, not a performance, perfectly within the SUP. Participants were from within Bellyacres and the immediate neighborhood. It was carefully monitored to be within the noise limits. Note: the people that held that class stopped holding it, their choice, because of the effect it was having on the SPACE neighbors.
So, those people are gone, a complaint is filed, and as a result the market, the highlight of my week, may be shut down because it's outside the SUP.
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"because we all break the speed limit. I don't think anyone really obeys the stop signs, either"
Well there we have it, the problem in a nutshell. How come (traffic) laws don't apply to you?
Why are you/they holding this market, if it's outside the SUP? How about getting a permit first?
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulW
Well there we have it, the problem in a nutshell. How come (traffic) laws don't apply to you?
Of course the traffic laws apply to me. And I'm not a spokesman for SPACE. I just want my Saturday morning breakfast.
I'm just pointing out that traffic laws are a bad comparison. We don't want perfect justice. Unless you don't drive, ever, you must have noticed that almost everyone is going at least 46 in the 45 mph zone.
The TED talks are great. Philip K. Howard has a good one:
http://www.ted.com/talks/philip_howard.html
"The land of the free has become a legal minefield"
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Traffic laws apply to you. You choose to ignore them, that's your choice, I'm sure you're decent enough not to complain if a cop pulls you over and gives you a ticket for doing so.
So why are SPACE and their supporters surprised/outraged if the law is applied to them?
You say it's different because speeding tickets aren't issued based on complaints. But the county doesn't cruise around looking for violations, they wait for the complaints because that's an efficient way of doing things and maybe they even have a live-and-let-live attitude.
If the complaints aren't valid, don't worry. If they are valid then the SPACE people should clean up their act.
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Is anyone saying that violations of SUP did not occur?
No.
Are traffic laws really comparable?
I don't think so.
Running stop signs and driving fast result in deaths, injuries, and property damage.
Has SPACE violations of SUP had any of these results?
No.
Does violating traffic laws result in a wider community benefit?
No.
Have unpermitted activities at SPACE resulted in positive community benefits?
Yes.
James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park
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Nicely put, James.
You might add to the list:
Will enforcement of the law against the unpermitted activities at SPACE cause a net community loss?
You bet.
As a kid I spent quite a bit of time working in soup kitchens and various shelters for both homeless people or battered women. Were most of these remotely in compliance with anything at all? Hell no. Why? There's no money in feeding homeless people or taking care of battered women. You run with the building you have, in the way you can, with the resources you're given. Period. And that's if you're lucky to be given anything at all. That's the reality of providing community services. There's a need for these services to be provide PRECISELY because there's no money in them, and few have the balls to provide them without assurance of personal reward. We can be assured that if there was money in homeless people or battered women Walmart would run shelters.
You always run afoul of certain kinds of people, much of the time that just don't like you, or want your property, who use the law to try to break up your projects all the time. In one case I remember a local family who owned a small department store wanted to expand their operation( and didn't like the fact that people were being fed anyway) and were perpetually launching complaints and we were inspected practically monthly. In this case, fortunately, the shelter had been given some good equipment years and years ago and there wasn't any violations to be found, until one day a non-UL listed cord was found attached to a coffee pot. And boom, that was it. SHUT DOWN. People went hungry. It was February and 2 feet of snow on the ground. Sure, the department store people had a right to complain. The had a responsibility not to because their motives where wholly selfish, greedy, and destructive. And the human cost was severe. The law is written in such a manner that the human cost is often ignored.
I don't have a lot of respect for Pharisees in general, because they're very deft and picking in choosing and exercising their enthusiasm for various parts of the law. It takes a certain sort of cleverness to ignore the obvious fact that there's a qualitative difference between running a soup kitchen and a Burger King--or a homeless shelter and a Hotel. While its perhaps sensible to expect certain levels of compliance from for profit enterprises who aren't interested in anything but financial reward--it must be recognized that for those who take on projects where there are NO financial rewards the costs of compliance are often insurmountable obstacles. But if your mission is to feed people, that's what you're going to do, law or not. If that stamp above the door says "Occupancy 30," you've got 40, and some woman and her kids shows up with her face busted in--you take her and the kids in, law or not. That's reality. I understand it's tough for some to recognize that doing the legal thing isn't always doing the right thing, but that's simply facts. I find there's generally two kinds of people anyway--those who are interested in the law and especially how it protects THEM, and those who are interested in what's "right" and best for others. I don't pretend to hope to persuade any of that former group with any of these comments. You can't really hope to get people to care, as that's more or less innate and a matter of conviction anyway. My point here is that our insistence on focusing on what is "legal" rather that "right" is going to drag us further down the road to societal impoverishment, a road we've walked quite a ways down anyway. And to assure others that share my values that there still are some folks who do care. Not only care but also recognize that in the cases of: child labor laws, workplace safety, women's sufferage, emancipation, reproductive rights, gay and lesbian rights, on and on and on--the vast majority of all the privileges, comforts, and securities we enjoy(that "we" includes the Pharisees) we provided by those who at personal cost advocated for what was "right" in spite of what the law might have said.
Quite a few really. Personally I'm a bit encouraged as I think in this time of increasing hardship it seems evident that the "all about me" people are losing ground to the "all about we." It's about friggin' time.
http://sensiblesimplicity.lefora.com/
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" My point here is that our insistence on focusing on what is "legal" rather that "right" .
(JWFITZ)
So if this meeting was about what is right
it would have been a meeting only between the special permit holders
and the people who live close enough to be affected by the noise and other crowd related issues .
Instead the permit holders invite government authorities
who are already for the project (as stated in the inspector's e-mail).
And ,BTW,it's announced on the Seaview bulletin board that the meeting is going to be "professionally moderated"
.
Who are those "professionals" if not the police?
___________________________
Whatever you assume,please
just ask a question first.
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Paul summerizes the problem "in a nutshell", as he puts it;
"If the complaints aren't valid, don't worry. If they are valid then the SPACE people should clean up their act."
Cleaning up their act is exactly what SPACE is doing. The SUP should evolve to meet community needs, just as SPACE has.
_____________________________________________________________________
I'm not a member of SPACE, or even a resident of Seaview, but look on this whole issue as important to my little community, on whose POA board I serve. We have a thousand small houselots and lots of keiki with not much in the way of activities or greenspace. the streets don't make good playgrounds or entertainment centers; even less so with constant population growth.
Our POA has set aside several lots we own as "miniparks", community gardens, and dedicated greenspace. We sponsor summer and seasonal break programs in these areas for our kids(and by default, their parents).
Are we to expect government intervention or lawsuits from neighbors who may not like the noise of active children? We're going forward with the important obligations that deal with "quality of living" for the majority of or residents. I again thank SPACE for spearheading this sort of community independence and setting an example of grassroots self sufficiency.
Stoneface
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