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The house that I am buying needs all new appliances. Does anyone on this list have experience in Hawaii with gas-powered water heaters, refrigerators & stoves? Is a stove necessary since microwaves came out? (I have crock pots, fry baby, coffee pots, and elctric fry pans already.) Do you have a "pig" tank in your yard? What sizes are available? How high is the cost of refilling the tank? Does someone deliver or do you just exchange the empties? Are the costs up front worth getting gas for these items instead of electric - over time?
How about rigging a solar panel on the roof for running ceiling fans during the hot portion of the day - any experiences out there?
I'm seriously considering adding a small catchment tank since my home inspection noted that the drainage from the roof was going back towards the house, not away. No gutters. This home has county water, but I'm betting that it isn't free (so that would add a water pump to my energy load - but I expect to have alot of dirty diapers).
What are the best investments?
(Not sure I'll get a clothes dryer - I can hang clothes under the carport like I've seen when driving around Puna).
I know I'm dealing with only an 8040 sq ft lot - do gas tanks normally fit under the houses (as I could locate all the gas applinces in one place)?
Does an electric instant water heater sound like a good idea - I love hot showers, not luke warm ones, unless I'm really overheated. I want to hear what is already working for YOU, not what the dealers tell us.
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Not sure what you mean by a pig tank, a propane tank? I have propane range, water, dryer. If it's a big tank in the yard, it will be filled by a truck, otherwise you take the 5 or 10 gallon bottles to a place like Pahoa Propane for refill. The tanks are out from under the house for saftey' sake. If you get a large yard tank, it only needs filling once every 6 mo. or less. If you have county water that's pretty cheap,and you won't need a tank or pump, you'll have steady pressure at all times. The gas flash water heater I have is very satisfactory. Electric flash would be a cheap alternative too, but wouldn't work in a power outage. The report about your drainage just sounds like you need a few 4" diversion pipes away from the home.
Edited by - leilaniguy on 06/02/2007 20:57:17
OK, I'll give it a shot.
>>The house that I am buying needs all new appliances.
At least you'll get to pick!
>>Does anyone on this list have experience in Hawaii with gas-powered water heaters, refrigerators & stoves?
Yes, no, and yes.
>>>Is a stove necessary since microwaves came out? (I have crock pots, fry baby, coffee pots, and elctric fry pans already.)
Hmm, well, if there's a blank space in your kitchen for one, you might as well. I would rather have a stove than all those appliances sitting on the counter. Your call.
>>Do you have a "pig" tank in your yard? What sizes are available? How high is the cost of refilling the tank? Does someone deliver or do you just exchange the empties?
I've never heard it called that! You mean a propane tank? You have a choice between an installed tank and portable. Portables come in 5 and ... is it 10 or 20, I forget. I don't care to transport more than 5 gallons in my car.
I have not yet had an installed tank. Yes, they do refill those at your house, but portables you take to get filled. Chemgas is the company I'm familiar with, but check the phone book.
At this house I have a gas range running off a 5 gallon tank and we change it maybe every two months. But at a different house I had a gas dryer and an instant on gas water heater just for the washer. The gas didn't go as far for either as it does for my range. (My range has an electric oven; only the cooktop is gas.)
Are the costs up front worth getting gas for these items instead of electric - over time?
Refrigerator --
Can't think of a reason to have a gas frig other than being off the grid.
Stove -- I think it depends more on how you like to cook than the cost, that and whether you have gas plumbed into your kitchen. If you don't already have the set-up, then you have to get a plumber to do it to code or you have a fire risk. If you have 220 in your kitchen but no gas, I would go for an electric stove. I like the ceramic tops.
>>How about rigging a solar panel on the roof for running ceiling fans during the hot portion of the day - any experiences out there?
A solar panel won't run electric appliances unless you have an inverter set-up such as the off the grid houses. I doubt you would ever recover the costs of installing a system like that in the power used by running fans.
Most on grid houses here have solar panels for hot water. We have a solar-electric water heater. I love it. If it clouds up for too long, the electric takes over. This is not cheap either but a good thing to do to save energy and eventually you should get costs back.
If saving money on hot water is first and foremost, it's cheaper to go on-demand gas than to set up solar.
>>I'm seriously considering adding a small catchment tank since my home inspection noted that the drainage from the roof was going back towards the house, not away. No gutters. This home has county water, but I'm betting that it isn't free (so that would add a water pump to my energy load - but I expect to have alot of dirty diapers).
County water is cheap. I think it would take a long time to recover the cost of a catchment with water bill savings, and the pump might even mean you don't save, not sure. But it's a thought to harness the water and if it solves a drainage problem ...
>>>What are the best investments?
(Not sure I'll get a clothes dryer - I can hang clothes under the carport like I've seen when driving around Puna).
I like having a dryer but you don't have to. In Hilo I've had clothes hanging out two days before they were dry. (I have a dryer but some of my stuff is line dry only.)
An electric dryer IS expensive, and here I think it's worthwhile to get gas, but keep in mind that you have to pay to convert a new gas dryer to run on propane.
>>>I know I'm dealing with only an 8040 sq ft lot - do gas tanks normally fit under the houses (as I could locate all the gas applinces in one place)?
No, they typically sit adjacent to the house. I would not want a tank under my house!
Like I said, if you don't have gas currently, you shouldn't "do it yourself" -- fire risk. This is new plumbing. I've done it without a plumber in outbuildings, but not running it into the main house.
If your current set-up is electric, it'll be easier and less initial outlay to stay that way. If you do, and you need to replace your water heater, I would consider getting a solar-electric one and adding a panel.
You said you like hot showers. No worries, our solar hot water is SO HOT that we have to be careful with it.
I would price it out both ways though.
Sorry, I don't know the price of a solar hot water set-up. The ones I've had came with the house.
last thing, be aware that the appliances you see at Sears and Home Depot might well have to be ordered and take a month to show up, so don't go in thinking it's going to be yours the next day.
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Morganlady, are you from the midwest, cause we are, & that is what the propane tanks are called.
County water is running us $30 for 3000 gals
We are renovating our house & are not planning on an oven, just a stovetop plus all of the stuff we currently use which includes our microwave with a convection oven, crock pot (actually use it here more than expected), undercounter mount coffee maker with thermal carafe, and outdoor grill & gas burner.
We have a solar powered attic vent (gable mounted) for venting the attic on sunny days, it is good with a caveat, radiant heat can build up without the sun shining bright enough to power the fan. We have helped this by installing a radient barrier on the inside of the roof in the attic.
We are also looking at installing raised grey water catchments on our house to lessen our use of energy (county water is one of the largest electric consummers on the island)
Forget the clothes dryer. We have a portable clothes line thingy that opens like an umbrella, made of aluminum, we have set it in a concrete tub on a scooter to go out on sunny days & in when it rains...
Most of our neighbors have the pigs on the side of their house (nearish to the road) Contact the gas company for the sizes. We have heard that the fill charge is dependent on location...but we are near Keaau & on good paved roads & do not have gas so we really do not know
We have instant elect. water heaters (only one is currently installed due to the renovation) We have are using 10,000 watt unit, good really for 1 full open faucet, without flow regulator shower head, they have variable adjust temp. & ours is at 42 C (can go up to 50 C with lower flow rate). That is the water temp, and we have very little lead time to temp ~1/2 min., but this would vary by run lengths, hence the multiple units. We do plan on adding a solar water heater - great rebates and financing are available here. Our electric, for 2 people is running from $60 - 70 total per month BUT we are VERY conservative with energy uses (hubby studied at the Solar Institute)
Edited by - carey on 06/02/2007 22:54:39
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The only thing that I am aware of in regards to a propane refrigerator is that they seem to be expensive units and are small.
We already had a propane tank at our house. The tank is a $7+/mo. rental from the Gas Company, and is filled by truck around twice a year.
We swapped our electric water heater for a Rinnai on-demand heater. There are different sizes available: ~5 gal/min. to ~8 gpm, as well as the smaller point of use types (e.g., under the kitchen sink). It still needs electricity to run its pump, thermostat, etc.
We switched our 220 electric dryer for an LG LP dryer (needed in winter at our elevation). The conversion from natural gas to liquid propane involved the installation of an adapter. Home Depot recommends using an LG certified technician to do this conversion but the one guy who services the east side was hard to get ahold of, so our contractor figured it out and did it for us. (He even figured out how to remove a part of the dryer that the tech didn't know about.)
I think most newer propane ovens may need a small amount of electricity for the pilot light safety shutoff. The cooktops may not need electricity, unless the piezoelectric starters need electrical power... not sure if they do.
If you have the option of positioning a catchment tank high enough above your points of usage in your home, you may be able to do without the electrical draw of a pump. But you have to be able to fill the tank without pumping. Gravity - it's a Catch-22 [catchment-22?].
Propane vs. electric. Well, if you don't have a tank (pig?) and aren't plumbed for propane, then you'll have to factor in the cost of the plumbing along with the relative cost of the appliances and the monthly costs. There is a new flexible plastic hose system (Aquapex?) that may be better than copper and galvanized pipe. It can be installed a lot easier and it's supposed to hold up to corrosion a lot better. It can be used for propane as well as water. The problem is that it's still a relatively new product line and finding people who know how to work with it may be hard(requires a couple of special tools).
Carey, that's a good point about county water using electricity. I don't think many people consider that. It's like charging an electric car; if you're not using and alternate energy source to charge, then you're still using oil because that's where most of HELCO's electricity comes from.
Edited by - Les C on 06/03/2007 00:06:38
Les, (thanks for all this knowledge, takes notes) --
interesting about the new flex line. In 2005 when we bought our current house our inspector called out the gas line as unsafe because they had moved the stove and used flexline (regular, not this new product). We confirmed with the Building Dept. that rigid pipe was required to be up to code.
Does the code allow this new product?
I like the sound of it.
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Kathy, I don't know if this kind of plumbing conforms to the code used in Hawaii. You can google "aquapex" and "wirsbo" for more information. The latter is the main manufacturer and creator(?). It's also referred to as "pex".
Thanks Les! I'll keep it in mind and should the time come I'm doing gas plumbing I'll look into it.
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I checked some of the sites with info about AquaPEX but none mention using it for propane. It can carry hot and cold water and be used for radiant heating in a slab.
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PEX is cross linked polyethylene and is used for hot/cold water applications. There is a HDPE plastic pipe specifically rated for gas application that has pretty much completely replaced the green plastic coated steel for service lines because of corrosion problems.
There is a flexible corrugated stainless steel tubing that is plumbed like PEX that has been approved by the gas industry and most jurisdictions but Hawaii?? It is corrugated stainless tubing with a poly outside coating so I suppose it could be mistaken for plastic. An example is here: http://gastite.com/products.php?cat=CSST&product=3_8&idlink=link3
Personally, I would stick to old fashioned black stainless pipe inside the house because it is bullet proof. No chance of an errant nail causing a leak during a re-model.
Larry
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