Kapoho Wai Opea tide pools Champagne pond sewage

[kalakoa]

Kelena, that's actually brilliant thinking: simply grant that (some) of the pollution is "grandfathered" -- AT ITS ORIGINAL QUANTITY.

Now, safely assume that any "vacation rental" now has far higher "output" than when it was built...

[Bullwinkle]

I'd look to the way we do power hook up here in Puna

create a district policy - county "fronts" or "floors" the installation backed with a 10-15 year pay back spread over the property tax bill - lien gets cleared at time of sale

I dont think it fair to subsidize a)ocean front living b) open dis regard of sanitation while the rest of Puna goes by code -

How does any one change title on these? Do the mortgage companies include the issue in their appraisal? The issue does affect value in my opinion. Its part of the reason one can get into them relatively cheaply - "part of the play"..... vs Kaanapali...... me thinks Maui took care of this kind of stuff years ago, and the values reflect that fact.

Its rolling the dice - (I like the odds by the way - make the county, better yet the Feds pay, get crackin' on those CFR's - grin)

[csgray]

Kelena,
I have found the feds to be pretty unwilling to consider grandfathering in pollution of groundwater and rivers, which I think is indicative of how they will handle ocean pollution too. When I owned my 800 sq. ft. 3 bed/1 bath craftsman bungalow built in the 1930s on a very large lot (plenty big enough to handle the septic system) I was forced to pay as much as was proposed for Kapoho homeowners to hook up to the sewer. This was for a house next to a train switching yard and major expressway, not an ocean front vacation rental. I had the option of paying in full for a discount, paying over time at 6% interest, or paying when the house sold, I did not have the option of choosing to not hook up. One man and his sister lost the home they were both born in to the county because they refused to hook up, this was later overturned by the state supreme court but by then their home had been bulldozed and turned into an apartment complex. The need for sewers there was caused by the county permitting construction of big apartment complexes in an area with no sewers, but the fact that my little house on a huge lot did not cause the problem did not grandfather it in. So I doubt the feds will look at Wai Opea that way either.

It will be interesting to see what happens next, I would still buy a place to live down there if I was retired and could afford it, it is as close to heaven as I'll ever get.

Carol

[Bullwinkle]

Deja Vu....... Heads up - If you see a fish and wildlife truck onsite - its too late for negotiation.

Our issue with them had to do with long entrenched surface water issues in a water taking rights setting - higher on the list me thinks.

First thing the federal biologists wanted to see was waste disposal.

Next the biologists started looking for endangered toads - lacking the discovery of same, the area is now to be preserved as suitable habitat by code. Then they called the botanists and hydrologists..out here would they call an iwi guy as well?

........ it was 5 years in the making and numerous committees / expensive studies before we gained the holy grail of " compliance "

Every one seemingly getting a turn at water issues nationwide, this decade is the way it reads to me.

[Kelena]

I think you lend some credence to my point, Carol. The State Supreme Court overturned it, quite probably because it was a taking of property without just compensation, which is fundamentally unconstitutional. You can regulate, but if the regulation imposes a taking of property, in general, you must compensate for that taking. Superfund sites are a little different, and this area of law is a specialty and quite complex, but the fundamental governing principle is that you cannot take property without just compensation. And I am not suggesting that the feds would EXPLICITLY grandfather something in. I am saying that it may be IMPLICITLY grandfathered because, I would argue as a homeowner, that the burden you are imposing amounts to an unconstitutional taking of property --the construction of which was approved under County code-- without just compensation. Of course, all they have to do is compensate you.

What we can hope for is that the Feds, the County and the State take notice and act in a coordinated way to come up with a plan to improve the situation, which may include condemnation of property in a gradual way, as in, upon sale. The extent to which each has jurisdiction over this close-to-the-shoreline area is another question worth investigating. In any case, we know that the homeowners will do nothing voluntarily in terms of reaching a full remedy, and I understand why they will not: expense.

It's Wai 'Opae.

[Bullwinkle]

With all due respect to the court.... the only thing being taken here is the right of the community (and visitors who are our lifeblood)to swim in (and expect from our marketing) clean ocean water.

No one has the right to deposit human waste in a shared resource ....

No matter how its weasel worded or legaleezed for this ruling. Like I said Deja Vu - this being only the first real skirmish enough to raise a federal eyebrow maybe?

10k buys a vault (80$ a month over 10-15 years even less if financed over thirty - problem solved, even comes with a clean conscience regarding the swimmers.

Push against the coming tide (pardon the pun) legal fees per household involved could exceed that easily if this turns into a real court case - imho

[Carey]

2 main points - household sewage is no longer "all organic". It is EVERYTHING that goes into your drain. Todays sewage includes drugs, makeup, creams & potions, pest poisons, cleaners, paper & plastic waste, and many other chemicals that flow into the drains of the houses....

and) There are ways around the burden being imposing. Both Carol & I have highlighted ways in which jurisdictions do that:

1. Mandate a Health & safety upgrade at the time of title transfer (ours was a newer Health Dept. code that required Tertiary rather than primary septic, Carol had the example of the sewer...

2. Mandate the upgrade & levy property taxes to obtain the funds for compliance.

Of course, there still are those property owners that would still not comply, & this county does have a population body that does not pay taxes, so until that can o worms is untangled...

I still have a hard time with those that will pay a fairly high price per acre (you still can get ag land on the mainland for far lower cost - there are still many US areas that go for around $1 - 2k /acre for ag land & $10K for residential) & then think that they shouldn't have to pay anything more....that it is an unfair burden that is being placed on them....

I have always lived in an ag zoned area, yet now live in a residential area that has many homes with property taxes of under $100/year.... to me that is totally absurd -esp. when the last unincorporated ag area we lived in had a tax RATE that was 10X what this county has (oh, & our unincorporated taxes had no local roads - all ours to maintain - no library, no beaches, no pool, no public transportation, no police, no fire or emergency dept...all of those we paid extra to use.... all we got for that rate was a small sheriffs dept & public schools (granted, really GOOD schools, but we had no kids....) We also had similar state income taxes & higher sales tax....so no wonder I think this is a financial nirvana & no one should complain about the tax man here!

[kalakoa]

Your sewage is "organic" as whatever you feed it; mine is 99% biomatter, though I grant the cellulose will take a little longer to break down.

[hawaiideborah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bullwinkle

With all due respect to the court.... the only thing being taken here is the right of the community (and visitors who are our lifeblood)to swim in (and expect from our marketing) clean ocean water.

No one has the right to deposit human waste in a shared resource ....

No matter how its weasel worded or legaleezed for this ruling. Like I said Deja Vu - this being only the first real skirmish enough to raise a federal eyebrow maybe?

10k buys a vault (80$ a month over 10-15 years even less if financed over thirty - problem solved, even comes with a clean conscience regarding the swimmers.

Push against the coming tide (pardon the pun) legal fees per household involved could exceed that easily if this turns into a real court case - imho

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Agree with you on this.
But it seems nobody in the court system, county govt or state govt is interested. The newspaper article states that for now, no regs and no rules and no plans for enforcing anything. So raw sewage for now.[xx(]

[Kapohocat]

quote:

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Originally posted by james weatherford...That young man reported that his parents had come to visit Hawaii, and they had swam at Kapoho. His mother was dead within 48 hours from a flesh eating something that got into a small wound on her leg.....
The next morning I called the Dept of Health office in Hilo.
I told the receptionist who answered the phone that I wanted to get information about the woman who had died after swimming in Kapoho, to which she blurted, "How did you find out about that?" I asked to speak to her supervisor. After a long pause, a man came on the phone and I asked if the public had been made aware of the bacteria in the water, to which he responded, "There is bacteria in all water."
Case closed.

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No to make light of the situation but my father got flesh eating bacteria in his yard in Honomu with no open wound. He had a compromised immune system, renal failure, and a bad heart and it took him 22 days to die.

There was that guy a few years who had been in a bar fight in Waikiki and got pushed into the Alawai with many open cuts from the fight, and died from the bacterial infection in a few days.

I am not going to say it is safe to swim in Kapoho. In actuality, it is probably not safe to swim anywhere anymore.