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Western Lens vs Native Lens
#61
I'm no apologist for Western civilization. I'm well aware of the damage done both to the environment and native cultures around the world by the European/American imperialist/colonialist mentality. In fact, I served in the Marine Corps Infantry in Vietnam in 1968-69 and have seen up close and personal just how much environmental and cultural damage modern cultures can inflict on those less powerful. But does anyone think for a minute that the power hungry Alii of old would not have behaved the same way if they had only had the technology.

Yes, the Americans made an illegal land grab of the Hawaiian islands and the Hawaiians got a raw deal. But they were getting a raw deal from their own rulers long before the Europeans and Americans ever got to the islands. They were subject to an absurd Kapu system that favored their royalty, human sacrifice was integral to their religion, and conscription into unnecessary wars among the various chieftans was constant--even when there was more than enough land and resources for all the people to live in peace. In fact their entire lives were subject to the whims of whatever chief happened to be in power--and they were not all beneficent rulers.

Not only that, but monarchies have never proven themselves to be a very just form of governance. Dynastic systems tend to produce self-centered, spoiled, and over-privileged brats that are out of touch with the needs of their people and who, consequently, end up becoming the least qualified to be rulers. Electoral democracy may have its faults but it beats a monarchical system hands down. I understand and support the desire of the Hawaiian people to stay in touch with their cultural roots and applaud their efforts to do so. But I would advise them not to turn a blind eye to the side of their culture that was not at all egalitarian or just and was rife (as were all pre-literate cultures) with superstitious nonsense. And let's be clear, most of the Hawaiians alive today cannot trace their ancestry back to the Alii who no doubt enjoyed the benefits of living off the labors of many, many commoners. Would any one of today's Hawaiians really wish to go back to living under a feudal system in which they were just one of the commoners who had no say in how they were ruled.

It may not be fair or just, but the Hawaiian islands were ripe for the picking, and they would have eventually been grabbed by one powerful nation or another--that's the naked truth of geo-political history. The Hawaiians were just plain lucky that it was the Americans, instead of the Russians or the British or the Japanese, that finally imposed themselves on the islands. Disease and cultural/political subjugation were coming to the islands; and if history is any lesson, the Americans were not the worst thing that could have happened.

I've spent a good part of my life living in other cultures and married outside of my own several times. I appreciate cultural diversity and am saddened that the dominant Western culture refuses to learn anything at all from the older cultures as it bulldozes its way across the world's cultural landscape. But there is also an upside to the global culture: we live longer now than at any time in history, we have a better health system (it was not native herbal systems that eliminated smallpox, cholera, and many other plagues), and we have a more healthy, varied diet. We are not so subject to droughts and famines and when natural disasters hit we get assistance from other places that have been unaffected.

I don't subscribe to the myth that primitive cultures had a much better way of life than we do today, but I do think we would be wise to take some lessons from them. Respect for the natural environment would be highest on my list of what the modern world could learn from the older cultures. But no one should be in denial of how much superstition plays in the old ways and how it can blind us from the truth of how things really are.

I don't think any of us benefit from "lenses"--Western or Native. For all those who love the truth, it's time to throw away the lenses that distort reality and only serve to make us think that we are so much different from each other. We all have the same basic needs and wants. We all need clean air and water, good food, shelter, companionship, entertainment, a way to make a living, people to love, people to be loved by--the list goes on. Only when we take off those aforementioned lenses, can we understand how alike we really are; and only when we understand how alike we really are, can we appreciate our differences.

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#62
mahalo,
pog
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#63
Well said Wakan.
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#64
wakan, mahalo for your opinion, it is well stated.

However, please understand, our culture is not "superstitious nonsense" to those of us who are kanaka maoli. I take umbrage at that portion of your statement.

I guess with all of our comments, it is not what we say, but how we say it,
especially during these tenuous, trying times.

I believe this thread was started due to the lava situation we are currently facing, and the sentiments expressed by the various Puna residents regarding diversion of the flow.

The continued rehashing of our history, who is right, who is not, what the Ali'i did, what they didn't do, what the USA did, what they won't do, etc., is grounds for continuing the divide.

We all should strive to move forward with a better understanding of each other. This aina is precious to all of us (hopefully), for some of us, it is our homeland. We are merely asking for understanding and compassion for our host culture, as we have learned to live with the "western" ways.

I trust it was not your intent to belittle our beliefs as "superstitious nonsense".

Welcome and thank you for your service in Viet Nam.


Mahalo Ke Akua, e na Kupuna, e na Aumakua.



JMO.
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#65
@wakan. Thoughtful. Wise. Appreciated.
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#66
Opihikao--

I apologize if I've offended you. It was not my intention.

I meant no offense to your culture or your aspirations to keep the spirit of it alive in this crazy modern world. I have no doubt that there are many positive aspects of the Hawaiian culture and that the dominant Western culture could well take some lessons from it.

When I used the term "superstitious nonsense", I did not mean to denigrate your culture or imply that the entirety of Hawaiian culture was such. It's my opinion that all pre-scientific era cultures were riddled with superstition because they simply did not have the knowledge available to them to answer some questions about how the world really is. On the other hand, pre-scientific cultures also had a more intuitive sense of how to live responsibly and intelligently in their natural environment. In some ways, science has delivered us an incredible body of knowledge; and in some ways, it has served to isolate us from what is really important in life. In fact, even our modern American culture remains steeped in "superstitious nonsense"; and although I personally would rather have the truth, I accept that others will choose to believe the nonsense (astrology is a prime example).

Every culture has it's good and bad elements. As a realist, I'm sure you must agree with me on that point. I have a book length list of gripes and criticisms of American culture. I only suggest that it is not helpful to be in denial of the dark side of the old culture; adjustments need to be made if it is to be relevant to the modern world in which we all have to live. I'm sure that you would not support human sacrifice or endorse a ban against some people eating some types of fish or bananas or accept the idea of forced military conscription. And yet it is well known that these were once practices of the Hawaiian culture (please correct me if you think I am misinformed).

I have no right to preach to you or judge you, and I certainly respect your right to practice your culture in any way you see fit as long as it doesn't hurt others. As I see it, we're all in the same boat now. Thousands of years of political upheaval have dispossessed people of their ancestral lands, created waves of refugees, decimated cultures, and enveloped the entire planet in war after war--no family, no people, and no culture has been left untouched by our history of insanity. The world has shrunk through radio, television, air travel, the internet--you name it; and as I see it, like it or not, we're all in the mix together now, and we have to accept each other's various beliefs and learn to live together peacefully. It's time for humanity to grow up and solve our family feud or face a grim future.

I personally have no religion and don't believe in any God or Gods. I simply strive to evolve and become a better person with each new day and to help out others when they need it and when I can. I do my best to respect the basic humanness (humanity) that resides (and is the same) within all of us--though it may be buried beneath layers of culture. Privately, I don't have much respect for most belief systems (though I do respect the rights of people to hold whatever beliefs they choose), and I try to keep mine to a minimum. I find no contradiction in "unconditionally" respecting a human being while at the same time "conditionally" respecting his or her beliefs. People "believe" things because they don't "know" things. I'm personally into believing less and knowing more. Belief is that which separates us and knowledge is that which brings us together. We weren't born with a culture or a religion or a belief system--we acquired these things--but we were all born as human beings (I think we can all agree that that's a fact); and, contrary to most evidence, I continue to believe in the basic goodness of that humanity that we all share.

As far as my going off on a tangent in this thread, I was just adding my thoughts to what seemed to me to be the drift. Once again, I meant no offense and certainly don't want to come off as sounding preachy. I don't think I'm always right, and I'm certainly open to having my views challenged. I just came across this forum today and was thrilled to find that there was a place where the people of Puna could participate in such an open dialogue.

Mahalo for sharing your thoughts with me.
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#67
I am really impressed with wakan's few posts and can certainly relate to his or her's opinion. Good on you, mate, I hope we can meet one day.
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#68
wakan, mahalo for your explanation, and well thought out statement. My apologies to you if I offended in my response, it was not my intent. As kanaka maoli, scientific facts and historic facts (from all over the world as evidenced here) enter into our modern day life, but we never forget where we come from.

As we move forward as a people, this is the kind of exchange we should all participate in. Respectful, thoughtful, insightful, and with some sort of balance.

Our ohana is of the line of Tutu Pele, thus, any "belief" we may hold are sacred to us. Not superficial, nor superstitious by any means. Some of us have seen first hand the mana of this land and our ancestors.

I do not expect anyone who is not kanaka maoli to understand, nor adopt our ways. Unlike the western culture who has forced us to live within the "rules and regulations" of ka po'e haole. We have done so, but I will never dismiss my foundation, my "koko" (blood), nor my teachings.

As "noeau" puts so eloquently, "E ola ka ike kupuna". Indeed.

JMO.
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#69
great discussion.. a thought...

To know something is different than to believe in something. Natives the world over often speak in terms of knowing.. industrialist (westerners here) speak about believing. Not to judge either but to point out that they are fundamentally different and create for the user an entirely different world view.

edited to correct corrections made by the auto spell checker!
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#70
Natives the world over often speak in terms of knowing..

Knowledge comes from direct experience.

industrialist (westerners here) speak about believing.

Their machines separate them from life.

"White Car" by Yes seems appropriate here:

i see a man in a white car
move like a ghost on the skyline
take all your dreams and you drive them away
man in a white car
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