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Taking a poll :
1.) What subdivision do you live in and what is the name of your community organization(s)
2.) Are there any problems, if so why and where do you think it stems from ?
3.) Name any solutions you think might help if you have any ideas ?
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I will go first :
1.) Fern Forest, not to be confused with Fern Acres. There are four community organizations in my subdivision, two are illegally operating; and there are two business compliant ones. The two illegal ones are : Fern Forest Community Association, and the Community Development Hui of Fern Forest. The two legitimate ones are Fern Forest Village Association and Jungle King Community Association.
2.) Many problems, beyond counting and I believe they stem from the way the two illegal organizations are set up. They use Robert's Rules of order which is Parliamentary procedure. Your first clue is the word Parliamentary, from wikipedia: "A parliamentary system is a system of democratic governance of a state in which the executive branch derives its democratic legitimacy from, and is held accountable to, the legislature (parliament); the executive and legislative branches are thus interconnected. In a parliamentary system, the head of state is normally a different person from the head of government. This is in contrast to a presidential system in a democracy, where the head of state often is also the head of government, and most importantly, the executive branch does not derive its democratic legitimacy from the legislature. Countries with parliamentary systems may be constitutional monarchies". So you can see why people in the U.S. would not like this concept in their community organization. In America we believe we should all have an equal vote. Well, in the By-Laws of the two illegal entities, they make you an automatic/ involuntary member but have no right to vote unless you pay them, which is electoral fraud; and a violation of my civil and constitutional rights. So, again Roberts Rule's can create the atmosphere of having second class citizens based on economic discrimination. Again, illegal in this Country. But when you point it out to them they act like a monarchy, go figure, wonder where they get that idea ? O.o
(It was a rhetorical question) Anyway, we live in America and we have no rights unless we exercise them.
3.) The involuntary members do have remedies, one is to amend their By-laws by calling a special meeting of the members. Your community organization should have provisions for members amending their By-laws, and how to give notice and who is eligible to vote.
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Punabeach
No active association, or at least last I checked.
Having CoH roads,that are maintained, greatly reduces the need for an association.
Issues: There are nonpermited homes side by side with showy million dollar homes. But neither seem to complain.
There is an off griddy with a wind generators and a few with gas generators but few complain, or should.
Fast growing ironwoods are blocking ocean views.
One home seems to have 4 or 5 units in a single family home.
Ohh. The Hawaiian who used to chant very early in the morning seems to have stopped. It was very nice and miss it.
Noises from Seaview Estates, on the otherhand not welcome. They carry well with tradewinds and always seem to involve shouting and tires burning rubber.
Tourism is important in the area and specifically Kehena Beach. There is much beach sand errosion and plenty of it in deep water that could be brought in.
Former Puna Beach Resident
Now sailing in SE Asia
HOT BuOYS Sailing
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4) Is this the right time to discuss subdivisions again?
Lots of recent threads about various subdivisions recently. It seems people are taking a rest and I don't blame them, but you might take the opportunity to wade through them first.
5) Do people who complain about subdivisions have problems with sentences, paragraphs and making their posts unreadable and unintelligible?
This is under active study and research. The results will be published in the Journal of Puna Social Media in the near future.
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My subdivision association uses a slightly less formal procedure to run it's meetings; Bob's Rules of order. No one may speak unless they offer everyone else a cookie. The conversations tend to be monopolized by a couple of people, but the others seldom complain.
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The reason I need people to respond on this thread is that many subdivisions are talking about class action lawsuits against their community associations. So, if it is all on one thread I can access it easier instead of it being all over the place in various threads. This will allow us to see exactly what is going on in Puna. Rob brought up the point that perhaps a class action law suit might help with the private vs, public road debate going on, so I thought I would include all issues in one place for easy access, especially for newcomers coming in. And give me an assessment of which community organizations need to be included in the class action law suit, if one comes about. I know Fern Forest, Eden Roc, Orchidland, and Ainaloa are having issues. So how many more are ?
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many subdivisions are talking about class action lawsuits against their community associations
The underlying cause of all these problems seems to be that the subdivisions have been "disowned" by County and so must fend for themselves, at which point the association accrues enough money that it makes an enticing target for frivolous lawsuits and proxy-vote takeovers. These associations are usually staffed with volunteers, often lacking sufficient legal guidance to avoid being distracted from their primary mission (roads, parks, longhouse, etc).
four community organizations in my subdivision, two are illegally operating
Pray tell what makes a "community organization" illegal? Levying and collecting fees without authority? Convening in an improperly zoned location? Failing to report and pay GET on income? Website not accessible to the visually impaired?
If I start a book club in my subdivision, is that also an illegal operation? (It's organized for the community, right?)
Roberts Rule's can create the atmosphere of having second class citizens based on economic discrimination
Compared with County's "free and fair elections" in which certain people get special consideration due to their wealth? "One acre, one vote." (Note that County meetings follow Robert's Rules... hmm...)
No active association, ... Having CoH roads,that are maintained, greatly reduces the need for an association.
Exactly my point above.
The subdivisions all need to engage in a class-action lawsuit against County. Fighting amongst themselves hasn't solved anything and will continue not to solve anything.
Of course, this means everyone would pay more taxes, and that money would vanish into the County economy to be spent wherever and however County sees fit (with no guarantee of actual services provided) but this might still be preferable to association-lawsuit-of-the-week, in which all the money disappears into lawyers' pockets.
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The purpose of Robert's Rules is to make the meeting follow easily-recognized guidelines. I dont' see how economic status has anything to do with it. I've never been to a public meeting anywhere in the U.S. that didn't follow Robert's Rules. It's used bc it's understood.
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Yes there use to be ironwoods in front of Puna Palisades/Punabeach, but a few years back someone cut many down to resurrect their view. At least it wasen't 60 acres of Oheas.
[quote]Originally posted by pbmaise
Punabeach
Fast growing ironwoods are blocking ocean views.
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Kalakoa my response is as follows :
We need to do more than sue the County, the State also lets these types of organizations fall through the cracks. And since we already have associations it is too late to go back to CoH style. I wish we could. But since we have to deal the hand we have been dealt that is what we are doing.
What makes a community organization illegal, where shall I begin, my subdivision has probably the worst corruption ever. First of all they don't even follow Roberts rules even though it states it in the By-laws. The FFCA By-Laws do not even have a purpose for goodness sake, plus are not signed, which makes them a draft. if the By-laws are not signed then there is no accountability to them and it makes them a draft. It is illegal to operate your entity on a draft. It makes it where you do not have to follow them or be accountable for them. And that is exactly what is going on. Both the Hui and FFCA have it where you are an involuntary/automatic member because you own a lot, but do not allow you to vote unless you pay them. That is their definition of good standing. That is a violation of the electoral fraud law, it rigs the voting for those who have money, again illegal. So, yeah these examples are just the tip of the iceberg. On top of all that the Board of the FFCA elected to pay themselves salaries, never notified the members or took a member vote about it. Now the FFFCA and the Hui are transferring the deed back and forth among themselves when the community starts looking into what is going on, scandalous and goes to support our claims of conspiracy and collusion. On top of all that the FFCA and Hui working together have welded a permeant barrier across the driveway of our community lot. And they had no building permit to do it either. our community lot has been gated off for four years, why ? They claim to not have insurance but the press of FFCA told me they co-mingle money for the community lot all the time, including the time when the Hui had the deed to the lot. On top of all that we dissolved the Hui in 2001, but they resurrected themselves and people got tired of fighting them because of their vicious tactics to get you to stop asking questions. I got accused of stealing money, stealing the fire truck, operating a meth leg, grow pot, blow bison. In 2001 they posted a sign at the school bus stop for all the kids to read, the I "blow bison". They will stoop at nothing to keep that money in their pockets. We have been refused finical records and tax information and any other request we have made. I asked for the mailing list because according to their illegal By-laws we the embers have the right to call a special meeting, but one of the requirements to give notice to members is mailing the notice to all lot owners. Good thing there are other methods, unless they rewrite the By-laws between now and the meeting, which they will do without even the blink of an eye. Further, they hired a finance company to manage court ordered mandatory road fees because they messed up our money so bad they did not know who paid for what lot. Scandalous !!! In 2001 the threats got so bad my Board disintegrated. So they are trying the same tactics again, but this time the community has had 14 years to be angry about the Hui dissolving our volunteer fire dept. four times. Then we loose our fire insurance,again. We still have our volunteer fire dept. but no thanks to them. I negotiated with the county in 2001 to get it back and now am shuttling volunteers to monthly training so we do not loose it again. The FFCA has spent court ordered mandatory road fee money on things not ordered by the court or approved by members. By spending that money on things not spelled out in the court order that is misappropriation of funds, and co-mingling of funds every time they spend road money on the community lot. that is not what the court order said the money was for. And the only reason that court order was obtained because Penelope Blair had a deep ravine in front of her property and she didn't want to pay for it. That is how all this got started in 1991 with the roads. The FFCA has been in business since 1978, but in the 90's the FCCA sold the lot to the Hui and the Hui was born. It was created by people who knew nothing of nonprofit requirements, yet they call them selves a nonprofit when they are not, and do not seem to understand that is illegal. And instead of fixing things they decide the best course of action is to go to the prosecutor's office and defame me. That is their definition of representing the community, tragic to say the leafs. Our community has been under oppressive tyranny since 1991 now, and we are sick of it. We plan to fix it once and for all. Also the FFCA and Hui have not paid Federal or State taxes as far as I can tell, that is tax evasion which could get them sent to jail for up to 8 years. Tax evasion falls under the False Claims Act and that is Martha Stewart went to jail for. So the best course of action is to report them to the IRS, State Tax office, federal sea, consumer protection and the AG's office. The IRS is cracking down on organizations that falsely claim they are a nonprofit, since that is a tax code term reserved for entities that comply with their requirements and apply to become a non-profit. It is illegal to call yourself a non-profit. So they are committing : fraud, misappropriation of funds, co-mingling of funds, tax evasion, using a tax term reserved for non-profits when they are not, collusion, criminal and civil conspiracy, violations of the False Claims Act and more…… And for future reference, entities only have 27 months from inception to apply to be a non-profit and those two organizations have existed far too long to be able to even apply now. the only exemption from that is Churches.
Disclaimer, please excuse typos and things I might have left out due to gotta go have to get ready for Armed Forces Potluck today at our community lot. Yes, they say the lot is closed, and they call the Police sometimes but the Police always tell them we can not trespass on our own property since the lot owners own it all in common. The Hui got tired of calling and the last potlucks have been awesome. But now that the FFCA has the deed, even though it is an illegal transfer, they believe it, which is all that matters to them. So I guess will have to start all over for the FFCA, but that is okay. Supoosedly the Hui is dissolving into the FFCA, but that could be another lie too ?
Anyway, gotta head out for now, be back later
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In other words, everything is still being done as documented in "Land and Power in Hawaii" (published over 20 years ago).
If the association is funded with mandatory dues proscribed in a CC&R, I would mount a legal attack against the CC&R as the funds are being used illegitimately.
Fortunately for me, my subdivision has no mandatory fees, so I am not required to participate in the association circus.
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