These new restrictions could be the first of many more to come. All in hopes to squash the remaining Hawaiian spirit, culture, and history that could get in the way of the telescopes search for E.T, JMO. Soon Only Hawaiians(10% of state population)who can show positive lineage(2%) will be allowed to apply for, or recieve a permit to visit the summit area for prayers or ceremonies. They may have to also claim how long and exactly where, when, how many, and why it will be taking place?
Now is the time to protests the changes Maunakea faces if some so choose(american right). If the TMT projects donor's and supporters get their way or control of maunakea's summit? Soon Hawaiians may be extinct( never recognized properly) from Maunakeas history like the Apache Indians history with Mt Graham? Looks as if the land lease and permits have already been extended past the year of 2033. This time without opposition from the majority(by excluding them altogether), I doubt the TMT plans on decommissioning within its first decade of operations? Now everything I just wrote is only opinions and concerns regarding the beginning of these many new Hawaiian restrictions.
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All in hopes to squash the remaining Hawaiian spirit, culture, and history that could get in the way of the telescopes
Behavior of the protesters forced the rule change. Concessions were made to cultural and spiritual beliefs.
Now is the time to protests the changes Maunakea faces if some so choose(american right)
The protestors seem pretty anti-America to me -- so I find some irony in claiming an "American right" to protest (while also claiming "this is not America").
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I do not understand how telescope(s) could make Hawaiians extinct.
Pam in CA
Pam in CA
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Crickets, Mr. Tom? (Rhetoric question) I hear my Kupuna, nothing else.
Well, maybe y'all need to hear more than crickets. I'm going to have a hot toddy reading back a few days on PW. Geeze. Aloha, Pam, however, respectfully disagree with telescope developers/operators not "making ends meet". Makes no sense; no one operates without gain of some sort, even "non-profit" organizations like TMT. Hope you feel better soon (sorry all, OT, but I do care that she gets well).
For those who continue to discount the Hawaiian people, and our land, pay close attention. There are things going on behind those perverbial "closed doors" (that's what y'all call it, right?) that you people better be ready for.
Additionally, on another thread there is discussion of "divide", and the one person accused of causing divide (dakine, accused by Mr. Tom, with due respect, again) is not the sole cause. (Link and quote below for reference 
http://punaweb.org/Forum/topic.asp?whichpage=4&TOPIC_ID=21273#223375
Dakine wrote:
"I think that line fits perfectly with the way the pro TMT crowd on PW goes on about the Hawaiians."
(Mr. Tom wrote):
PW is a collection of individuals with their own opinions. Nice how you now try to create a divide. I'm obviously pro-TMT, so perhaps you'd like to provide examples of how I keep going on about the Hawaiians?
There are many here who blatantly contribute to "divide", as "pro-TMT" people. Punaweb is manini representation of the "majority". Very manini. In fact, the joking about this is insulting, and the misinformation is also insulting as hell.
If the voices of the Hawaiian people are indeed heard (nothing, to date, has ever considered the majority of our people. It is the perverbial SOP), common ground can be achieved. However, the line drawn in the sand, as it were, will not move with the wind. Both sides, to my knowledge, are not going to "stand down". Very concerned.
In reading the continued dismissal of what some of us feel is of importance, it contributes to the "divide". We are on the brink of a very tenuous situation, as I watched one of my cousins (The oldest fat guy with DLNR) serve papers to my other cousin (Sam Keliihoomalu, Uncle Robert's son) from Kalapana today. Very concerned for all of our people. (*See video below; there are other videos out there which show really poor form on the part of DLNR. Not going to post it here. Disappointing, to say the least)
http://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2015/0...mauna-kea/
Chunkster, I hear you. Loud and clear, and mahalo you for being up front without snide, condescending, downright disrespectful comments. Aloha to you.
kalakoa, the irony is indeed astounding. The laws are astounding. The manipulation of law is astounding. I'm beginning to see why your posts are of one vein, as it were. Kudos.
Both sides need to come to middle ground, or this will get very ugly (for lack of a better word). Helped serve dinner a few nights ago to both protectors and DLNR ohana, with a heavy heart. To read what is posted here, shows the lack of any kind of empathy, compassion, and effort towards resolution.
Shameful. Hilahila.
E Pele E, noho nani mai. Sure wish Tutu Pele could solve this dilemma prior to the "divide" of our entire community, and the "State" of Hawai'i. Perhaps she will. Mother stated ,"I'm curious to see if Kamapua'a will allow Pele to visit him, given this latest development." To some of you that means absolutely nothing. For us, it was a very good question, the answer is yet to be seen.
FWIW. Mother is very wise, kupuna status.
SMH/JMO.
P.S. Mr. Tom, re: Security truck and the person walking up to the summit that got hit (reported in the news as a "hit and run"). If that driver told you the young man tried to "punch" the rear view mirror of the truck, that is a big, fat, LIE. Didn't want to call you on it before, however, you need to know, it was not the case, Sir. Seen the police report, talked to the officers who took the report, and the driver admitted to hitting/clipping him, and not stopping. The young man now has a case against the driver, his employer, and also has a lawyer to file damages, not for money (dead Presidents on paper is not what he wants; he wants an apology, that is all). Just setting the record straight, as I understand it.
P.S.S. I actually miss ironyak, at this point, and a few others who had decent dissertations. Even "KathyH" and "RJ Hampton", along with the respected "Carol", are among those who contributed to discussion without the downright "ugly" that permeates this forum today. Mahalo to those who continue to hold that basic sense of "aloha" in your posts.
God (Akua) be with us all in this trying time.
Lava. (Also means, Pau. [ ])
ETA: Link for reference to the "divide" comment.
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Opihikao,
"Well, maybe y'all need to hear more than crickets. I'm going to have a hot toddy reading back a few days on PW. Geeze. Aloha, Pam, however, respectfully disagree with telescope developers/operators not "making ends meet". Makes no sense; no one operates without gain of some sort, even "non-profit" organizations like TMT. Hope you feel better soon (sorry all, OT, but I do care that she gets well)."
The gain is knowledge. I am truly sorry you do not understand this. Much of the human race has a curiosity about the world, our environment, what's out there and where we came from.
The telescopes do not make money, I'm sick and tired of those who continually make the claim that they do. The financial statements for the observatories are available via their websites, for anyone willing and honest enough to do their own research.
You are able to post here because of all the knowledge gained from from astronomers and physicists, and all those who made a decision to improve human life after being influenced by the discoveries made by earlier adventurers. But now you think it's about money, and that is very upsetting.
I went into this field because I wanted to discover and understand our universe, not to make money. Many others have as well, and it's insulting to read remarks from you and others that this is about money. It isn't. It's simply learning about our universe. If you don't agree, then start a campaign against science.
Boy, you've pissed me off tonight.
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Quote: (Mr. Tom stated)
"You are able to post here because of all the knowledge gained from from astronomers and physicists, and all those who made a decision to improve human life after being influenced by the discoveries made by earlier adventurers. But now you think it's about money, and that is very upsetting.
Mr. Tom, I am able to post here because of my God given right to speak as a human being, nothing else.
Well, now we're even, right? You pissed me off trying to add "Bob" to my "Opihikao". So, let's be pissed off together. Sir. Sometimes the truth hurts (money is indeed the root of evil). Still have aloha for you, even though, you're "pissed off".
All Hawai'i stand together, Sir. You are part of Hawai'i now, right? We can stand on opposite sides of the issue, and yet, agree to disagree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5qNZox4T8
Have a lovely evening, this too shall pass. Sir. No need to circle the wagons. I'm now pau being pissed off, and continue to look for resolution. [ ]
JMO.
ETA:
P.S. Still support TMT, with reservations, and conditions. At this point.
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"Mr. Tom, I am able to post here because of my God given right to speak as a human being, nothing else."
You are able to post here due to all the the scientists in the past making discoveries that provided the knowledge to create the internet. They did it because of their love of discovery and gaining knowledge. Do not twist it into some god-given right. No scientist is stopping you speaking as a human being; their work allowed you to speak your mind to a much wider audience. And now you insult us.
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I am sorry to see so much tension.
Must agree with Tom here about the importance of science. I am stuck in bed a lot and am so grateful for the Internet! When I was young I read an Isaac Asimov story which featured something like the Internet, but I never dreamed I would get to use something like that in my lifetime! My school had just got one of the early calculators. It cost hundreds of dollars. Students could look at it, but not touch it.
Of course, it is scientific advance that is keeping me alive right now. What Jeb Bush has just announced would take my Medicare from me, and I will die then. When I heard this I became very ill for two days. I was born after the magic cutoff year which I think is 1959. I cherish life.
There does seem to be a lot of confusion about the telescopes and money. Like anything else, research must be paid for. Telescopes are for research, for discoveries and knowledge, but thus cost money rather than make it. The world is lucky to have some people and institutions who are willing to pay for increased knowledge without demanding a financial return from it. I'm worried this is slowly changing but that is a subject for another time. In the meantime, grateful for what is there...
Opihikao, Thank you for caring whether I get well. When I got home today I fell asleep and only woke up now, about 4 am! Still tired so I will get ready and go to bed.
As for the rest, I wrote this on the other thread:
"Gypsy, Da Kine and Southermost have clashed with me because we disagree on the TMT issue. But I respect everyone as a fellow human being. I also respect the Hawaiian people, Hawaiian culture, and kupuna. I wish there were some wise kupuna who could mediate this dispute, which is about so much more than a telescope.
I just believe it is not fair to block the TMT after an agreement which took seven years of effort has been granted. I think telescope leases should also be honored.
But, when leases are up, or when a new telescope is proposed, that is when I think protesters shoul be ready, organized, peaceful, but clear about what they want.
That is only about the telescopes. Agreements must be honored. But the non- telescope issues should be separately but thoroughly addressed. I am the first to agree that these are very important.
I also think the visitor's center should be respected and allowed to open, and serious discussion of a Hawaiian cultural center should begin.
Hoping aloha spirit will prevail."
I hope we will be able to keep our friendships here on PW and repair any rifts. I'm assuming there will have to be a lot of "must agree to disagree" which is fine.
Gypsy, I am a transplant to CA. Not sure if I should be answering you here or the other thread since I am too tired to remember what I read where! My parents went to CA when Dad got a job there. Not a job which led to wealth, just a job. They found a place with better schools for us then where we had come from, but that was because CA had good schools in general, then. We almost moved to Hawaii. Dad's mom lived in Hawaii. I have always had a special place in my heart for Hawaii.
Hugs to all but especially Tom and Opihikao.
Pam in CA
Pam in CA
An untouched issue is the very real possibility that TMT may be the last great ground based telescope ever built.
Look at what is happening in the world around us. Most world governments are bankrupt and what money they have is going into weapons development and procurement. The overpopulation wars have started in the Middle East and Europe is descending into chaos from a migrant invasion. In South and Central America criminal syndicates are accomplishing what Islamic fanatics are doing on the other side of the world creating a tidal wave of refugees. A new report from climate researchers indicates a significant probability of a 10 foot rise in sea level within this century. THe future is looking more and more grim. I won't go on. Talk of the telescopes that will follow TMT is empty talk. This is the last stand of human greatness in the pursuit of knowledge.
If TMT is not built now, here, there will be no great telescope to give humanity the grand vision it needs now more than it ever has. To see the narcissistic mindlessness of those trying to lawyer and protest out of existence what may stand as one of humanities greatest achievements would totally piss me off if it did not make me too sad to even care about a humanity that breeds such ignorance in a sea of knowledge.
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You can't fix Samsara.
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