Posts: 2,244
Threads: 396
Joined: Nov 2011
kalakoa, exactly.
"Most of the article focuses on "how the State has violated its own rules"."
Over, and over, and over again (ie. Superferry. Sure wish they had done that "right"). You hit the nail on the head. Again.
Relax, all TMT supporters, with your snide comments, and rebuttal. The State already gave permits to proceed. Done deal. No matter how many years there has been resistance, you don't see it nor hear it; and don't want to. Never will.
Mahalo, kalakoa, you do have a way of driving the point home over time.
Some get it, some never will.
JMO.
ETA: CONSERVATION LAND (Gov. Quinn blew that out of the water, for the record)
Paulw, good evening sir. Yes not much thought, just enough to make it "jmo" though. When I state "LOOKS LIKE" some laws were broken, thats what it looks like to me. This by no means is said by the judge, jury, or exacutioner, only a concerned island citizen.
Aaron you are a champ, sure like the way you can handle yourself on a forum.
The short answer to your three questions you had for me is, NO. I did not include myself in any of the long 7 year TMT process," didn't even no about it." Really was not in favor of the past 8 to 10 Observatories that had been built atop Maunakea the last 30 years. This building of bigger and bigger telescope projects atop maunakea has been going on for the greater part of five decades now. I have not been in favor of any of them, including this TMT project.
P.S. Caltech has helped bring the Keck telescopes to our summit, and now Caltech wants this TMT on Maunakea. In the past decade, how much money has been invested into this CalTech planned desecration of maunakea? In the same decade how many students from the big island have received scholarships from Caltech university? Two very special and unique places, both the "Caltech university and the Maunakea summit". Experiences atop maunakea such as observing space via the Large Telescopes has become very common and almost expected by millions now. Where as the highly revered educational experience that only CalTech can provide or offer remains rare for big island students.
I know of one senior boy in pahoa high this year who has already scored a 2,000 on his SAT, had strait A's for 3 years, skipped a grade, plays 3 school sports a year, gets paid to tutor others in math, and participates in community services. With the inclusion of $1 a year for Caltech land use, Would this young man be CalTech material?
Posts: 5,640
Threads: 101
Joined: Dec 2008
You may want to put a little more than just zero thought into your posts before you start accusing people of breaking laws.
Just because you put "jmo" after everything doesn't mean you can write whatever drivel you want without being challenged on it.
You had no idea a new telescope was going to built? Okay, that can happen, bit rich to suddenly proclaim that you're so concerned about the mountain. You have never been in favor of any of the telescopes, you now say, yet you were pushing for a ski resort and a restaurant to be built up there.
The anti-science anti-telescope anti-rationality people must be proud to have you on their side.
PS I'm curious what that senior at Pahoa, who you rightly admire, thinks of the telescope.
Posts: 14,096
Threads: 424
Joined: Aug 2012
Mahalo, kalakoa, you do have a way of driving the point home over time.
...and it's all the same point: government makes rules and laws "for everyone", then exempts itself (and its friends) from actual enforcement while interpreting the finer points against individuals.
Pretty much all the problems we have here in Hawaii are derived from government's arbitrary money-grubbing, all the way back to the overthrow/annexation. On this point, I completely agree with the protestors.
That said ... regardless of the abuses, we must still function as citizens of the world; holding back science is simply not constructive and does not further the cause of humanity. This is where I completely disagree with the protestors.
PaulW, now it is good morning to you sir. Yes I was a bit sarcastic in the past about fine dining restaurants and snow making machines Paul. My point was the summit of maunakea should not be over developed or ruled only by white foreign promise making scientists. If Maunakea is going to be open to a million visitors a year, 20 telescopes, Yale and Caltech universities, special groups only? (A bit of Sarcasism intended here) Then maybe our island keiki could learn to ski or surf the summit lake like the Chinese tourists do? Gain a few local jobs trucking food to the the summit daily, or reserve a late night reservation for dinner under the stars atop maunakea?.
Again Paul I wrote my opinion about what I read in Ms Trasks article. It "looks like, to me" that many laws were already violated or broken. You see it, or look at it differently obviously.
Posts: 5,640
Threads: 101
Joined: Dec 2008
If you can't name even one law that has been broken then how can it appear to you that many laws have been broken?
A constant theme in your posts is the bewailing of lack of opportunity for young people here, no doubt because you have children yourself. So why be against something that will provide jobs and money for education? Just because you can't see how you personally will profit?
Too bad you don't like white foreign scientists because there will be fewer and fewer non-white local scientists if this keeps up.
I hope you haven't passed your racism on to your children.
Posts: 2,244
Threads: 396
Joined: Nov 2011
quote:
Originally posted by kalakoa
Mahalo, kalakoa, you do have a way of driving the point home over time.
...and it's all the same point: government makes rules and laws "for everyone", then exempts itself (and its friends) from actual enforcement while interpreting the finer points against individuals.
Pretty much all the problems we have here in Hawaii are derived from government's arbitrary money-grubbing, all the way back to the overthrow/annexation. On this point, I completely agree with the protestors.
That said ... regardless of the abuses, we must still function as citizens of the world; holding back science is simply not constructive and does not further the cause of humanity. This is where I completely disagree with the protestors.
EO!
There are plenty ohana (not just mine, everyone's involved) on both sides that continue to try and find resolution. It is in the works.
This issue will not divide our people, it will make us stronger in working through the proposed Federal recognition, and the Na'i Aupuni/Kana'iolowalu Nation building process. Both of these efforts have flaws, however, it is a step forward.
TMT has good leadership, they are good people, we can hope they keep the promises made. That's all we can do because permits are issued, and the legal battle if TMT sues will cost our State in more ways than just money. That said, with this protest, at least the Hawaiians can "feel" like we're being heard. Time to focus on the main issue of recognition/sovereignty, whatever it ends up being.
TMT will rise, as Hawaiians (kanaka maoli) rise, like a "phoenix from the ashes". Changes will be made on the State level as to "Conservation", "Management", "Preservation", "Cultural Rights", etc. That is the win/win, and silver lining. In reflection, this video of the June 24th protest shows the pain of a people, and the meaning of "idle no more". So much mana that day, indescribable commitment and presence of Kupuna, Akua, e na Aumakua:
Hawai'i Rising
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7EQ2--BA0A
The stall in TMT construction is both interesting, and appreciated. It is very respectful of TMT to take this time for all parties to regroup, and maintain civility. Hopefully, finding resolution so we can all move on from a stalemate without further confrontation.
JMO.
Posts: 1,930
Threads: 71
Joined: Jun 2012
quote:
Originally posted by gypsy69
My point was the summit of maunakea should not be over developed or ruled only by white foreign promise making scientists.
TMT has stated they would prefer to have more local Hawaiians take a share in the observatories, especially TMT, as astronomers, engineers and technicians.
Unfortunately for Hawaii island, there is this growing perception and movement that becoming more primitive is the answer for all imagined problems. This regression into more and more primitive mindsets, lifestyles, ignorance, and other mumbo-jumbo is leading to a young population that is almost ineducable, ignorant, filled with misinformation, and worst of all, terrified of mathematics. One thing I have noticed with immersion Hawaiians is they view mathematics as almost being some evil ju-ju. The observatories can't just hire Hawaiians because they are Hawaiians. That would be discriminatory plus they need people that can actually do meaningful work. This divergence is a massive problem for this island and will lead to bigger and bigger problems developing if technological advancement is shunned in favor of dancing naked on the beach all day, smoking meth and bath salts, and carjacking, house squatting, and thievery providing spending money.
"Aloha also means goodbye. Aloha!"
*Japanese tourist on bus through Pahoa, "Is this still America?*
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 749
Joined: Sep 2012
If Maunakea is going to be open to a million visitors a year, 20 telescopes, Yale and Caltech universities, special groups only?
If there are a million plus visitors a year driving to the top of Mauna Kea, it doesn't sound elitist (white foreign promise making scientists) or that access is limited to special groups. Perhaps an extremely large special group consisting ONLY of those people who want to see the top of Mauna Kea?
what I read in Ms Trasks article. It "looks like, to me" that many laws were already violated or broken
Read the article carefully. The first "fact" Mililani Trask lists is based on this statement, "Lease rental cannot be waived for any commercial venture for longer than one year." That would be true for a Target store, not a telescope. All of her "facts" that follow are based on that initial misleading and inapplicable statement. If you believe her first statement, she sells you more "facts" unrelated to the TMT or Mauna Kea later. She is using 9th grade debate tactics to prove her position, but so poorly that they certainly never prove her point. She is at best either disingenuous, or else intentionally lying. I doubt she's confused.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 749
Joined: Sep 2012
if technological advancement is shunned in favor of dancing naked on the beach all day...
Not a completely unacceptable tradeoff. The TMT protestors should play up this alternative to the telescope more. It got my attention. But before I'm ready to give up my support for the TMT I have a few questions. Would there be naked dancing on the beach all night too? This would allow Hawaii Island to continue as a leader in star gazing, with perhaps less observatories, but more observers. On which beaches would this take place? Will they install lights on the trail down to Kehena?
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
|
