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FYI: (*Snipped - More at link incl. video)
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/29898...-arguments
The justices questioned the attorneys on what impact the large telescope could have on cultural resources, and why the conservation district use permit was granted before a contested case hearing.
"A contested case hearing means you have an opportunity as the participant requesting a hearing for testimony that's under oath. You forfeit that opportunity if the decision is made ahead of time," associate justice Michael Wilson said.
"We firmly believe that the state really did railroad this project through without due process being followed," Wurdeman said.
But lawyers for DLNR and UH Hilo say issuing a permit prior to a contested case hearing was standard operating procedure.
"The university certainly believes that it was properly done, but again, the court will review it and they will tell us what they think," Handlin said.
More than 200 people were in the courtroom. The justices now take the case under advisement.
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"Ran into a couple of Mauna Kea astronomer friends last night and we discussed the ordeal in length. At this point they don't really care what happens. The setbacks and time lost due to the protesting will render TMT obsolete by the time it is built."
I've seen this "TMT will be obsolete by the time it's built" argument several times now, usually from TMT protesters. The argument holds no water, it's entirely false. When questioned, those making the argument invariably point out that the ELT is being built in Chile and will be larger than the TMT. However, aperture size has little bearing on whether a telescope is obsolete or not. If it was important, the HST would have been obsolete as soon as it was sent into orbit, both Subaru and Gemini on MK would be obsolete as the Kecks are larger, and why even build the Giant Magellan Telescope (GMT) in Chile as it will be smaller than both the TMT and the ELT?
How capable a telescope is comes from a large combination of factors including the site, the instrument suite and, to some extent, the aperture, but size isn't everything. When built, the ELT, GMT and the TMT will be the post powerful and technologically advanced ground-based telescopes in existence.
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Okay, if anyone else wants to listen to the MP3, you might as well start at the 35 minute mark. The issues are much more crystallized when the appellee's attorneys got up. Best as I can tell, the issue is whether there was sufficient due process in the permitting process, and more specifically, whether there was a "contested case" hearing BEFORE or AFTER there was a preliminary decision to have TMT go forward. The analogy the judges used was contrasting on the one hand a situation where both sides got to say their peace, and then a judge rendered a decision; and on the other hand a situation where a judge preliminarily ruled for the plaintiff, and then told defendants that they could try their best to convince the judge otherwise.
This didn't sound particularly good for the TMT folks, but as is often the case when listening to oral argument, the judges simply push the ultimately prevailing party harder so that the losing side feels as though they got a fair shake. It certainly didn't help that the anti-TMT argument was so disorganized and so divorced from the pertinent rules and regulations.
Leilani Estates, 2011 to Present
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Justin, it's excruciating to listen to...OMG. [xx(]
Here is the unedited video, from Oiwi TV, and it's a tad less painful:
http://oiwi.tv/maunakea/supreme-court-he...w-footage/
Progress, at the very least.
JMO.
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So the TMT was only one year away from being obsolete and the multiple governments and institutions of higher learning who invested 1 1/2 billion never saw it coming, but three friends shooting the breeze have it all worked out.
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"...size isn't everything."
...it's how you use it.
A recontextualisation which can be pretty much universally applied.
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"...it's how you use it."
Exactly.
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In listening/watching (body language is also interesting) to this madness, perhaps the worst part of this is:
The Supreme Court has the option to send it back to BLNR.
Hot mess.
[xx(]
JMO.
P.S. Aloha, Mr. Tom. Trust all is well, Sir. Tonight is the two (2) moon night, right? [  ] (j/k)
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"The Supreme Court has the option to send it back to BLNR."
Oh jeez, I have a headache...
"P.S. Aloha, Mr. Tom. Trust all is well, Sir. Tonight is the two (2) moon night, right?"
Indeed it is! If anyone spots mars and it's the size of the full moon, let me know, I'll include you as an author on the Nature Paper that will no doubt win some Nobel prizes.
[Just a tip - if you want to see Mars you might just spot it in the morning twilight sky, it's just re-emerging from behind the sun].
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
So the TMT was only one year away from being obsolete and the multiple governments and institutions of higher learning who invested 1 1/2 billion never saw it coming, but three friends shooting the breeze have it all worked out.
Hey I'm no scientist simply summarizing the opinions of 2 astronomers on Mauna Kea or perhaps how they would like things to unfold. I did notice they were stressing the Europeans are getting way ahead of us. And the Sophia, NASA/German partnership, is pretty fascinating, a souped up 747 that circumnavigates the globe taking far-infrared photos of other galaxies. Stuff we can't do from Mauna Kea. Some of our better scientists from Mauna Kea have gravitated to the Sophia. I'm very excited about the moon observatories and wonder when they will be up and running.
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