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dakine, I'm watching all of it, and will share. Mahalo for the diligence, without talking about "left (or right) nuts". Which lead me to...
MTVDude: At least you have nuts. [  ] Some don't, and never will. As we are all entitled to our own opinion, with regard to Na'i Aupuni, you're right: It's NUTS, however, manipulated (as the great country has taught us; that being the USA) to placate those "Hawaiians", and keep us under their rule. Well, plenty people have balls/nuts, in the venacular, it's how you use them that matters (if you can keep them [  ]).
Studying before speaking always is a better avenue (Papa always said, "Do your homework before opening your mouth."), given the complexity of this issue. No nuts lost in the process; education is key. Yes, facts are very vital to truth; which is in the eye of the beholder.
Enough said. Mahalo for the dissertation, which evolves into crap in less than a New York second (as usual). Keep your nuts, and I'll raise y'all a few balls.
Punatic007, aloha to you. That is all.
MarkP, mahalo. Agreed.
knieft, yes indeed: "Enough is enough." That is the message...Obviously. Mahalo.
kaimana, your eloquence is not lost, your position is clear, and again, kudos for keeping grace and dignitity in this process. Mahalo again.
At the end of the day, this will not be resolved here on PW (God forbid...lol). However, the view of many, make for sound decision making. May what is "right" drop out the bottom of this fiasco.
Have a lovely evening all. Mo'opuna need much more attention at this hour! Aloha kakou.
JMO.
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http://www.punaweb.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21366&whichpage=10&SearchTerms=Dalai%20Lama
Dalai Lama speaking in Honolulu came up in the Sovereignty Squatters Get Arrested thread back in August.
I see our gracious host Her Highness Queen Opihikao has wrapped things up here so that is all.
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quote:
Originally posted by knieft
OK, then I'll say it: you have no oppression. I'm clearly not the lama, but hey, I'm going on record.
(*Disclaimer) This is not what I'm agreeing with, with due respect (didn't read it until now. For the record)
Mahalo again for your interest, however, the terminology may not suit you, ("oppression"), but it is the "buzz word" that describes the overthrow of our Kingdom under the Queen. Part of our history dictates the word "oppression".
Rest well. We're all still engaging in finding a better future. Mahalo for the effort.
Now, mo'opuna just ate all the freaking ice cream! OMG! Bloody kids. They have the balls to eat ALL without asking if kupuna want a little scoop. Auwe! (Little do they know, I have Snickers, Twix, KitKat, and Hershey's bars hidden from the already sugar ridden bunch of keiki...five (5) of them! [  ] Being boys, I'm going to teach them how to handle their nuts and balls!...lol. E kala mai, off topic.)
Aloha ahiahi, may we find a cohesive balance one day, God willing and the creek don't rise. OR, Tutu Pele take care of what is her kuleana.
Rest well, all. A hui hou.
JMO.
P.S. As usual, PM2, your snide remarks continue to entertain, yet not contribute anything of substance. Never professed to be no "Queen", that is my Mother in our family, and Queen Emma, in our lineage. Merely a "Princess in waiting", as it were. Get it straight, or get out of my shadow...once again. Were you not "dismissed" (lol)? OR, was that a left handed compliment? If so, e kala mai. (Again, lol.)
Thank you. [ ]
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With the exception of the queen, what people actually had their land stolen? Most of the landowners from the Hawaiian Kingdom era seemed to have retained their land
Considering that a large percentage of land, at the time of the overthrow, belonged to the government, which was a separate entity than the royal family, and all that land was taken, as well as all the manipulative bs that took place behind the scenes by the likes of Charles Bishop and others, it's sort of hard to accept the premise that there wasn't any land stolen. Keep in mind that the make up of the government itself was in part that of the same individuals that perpetuated the overthrow, and they were deeply involved in treachery long before the overthrow finalized their hold on the islands and had transferred large tracts to themselves as well as trusts and other entities that they controlled.
When one considers the way in which haoles took over the Kingdom, having acquired positions of power within government and poisoned the process long before the actual overthrow, it becomes very clear that even the way the Mahele was handled was skewed and biased towards the westerners that influenced the changes that were taking place. To consider how much of the land was actually transferred to Hawaiians verses quick claimed by the likes of Bishop Museum and other dummy entities set up by manipulative haoles it's a wonder that any Hawaiians got possession of land at all. So to say that all the Hawaiians had land and kept it since the Mahele is silly.
Consider if you will that of all the Hawaiians that were originally granted Kuleana very few actually were able to stake their claims. At the time it was required that they pay a fee, in coin, cash, that then was very rare and hard to acquire, and if they did not do so in a timely manner there were haoles in Honolulu standing by to pay the fee and make a quick claim on their unclaimed deeds. In other words long before the overthrow the haoles were perverting the process and stealing everything they could from the people of Hawaii.
In other words Mtviewdude it is common to believe the popular myth of the history of land titles in Hawaii as so many do. That's ok, understandable. When we consider that so much of what people think they know is based on the popular myths that are perpetuated through their continual retelling verses an actual understanding of the history of the islands, what else would we expect? And then when we say it over and over as so many do we convince ourselves that whatever we say is right. Just like 007 and his story about the Dalai Lama, if he says it enough everyone else will believe it and tell it to others as the truth. That is the way we all got to the point of spreading the lie of the rights the USA claims to have to the islands.
Speaking of the perpetuation of lies. I found Williamson Chang's interview at the link opihikao posted...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x_i4wxkF4I&feature=youtu.be
to be most enlightening on that one point. It's amazing what people believe without any review of the history themselves to insure that they actually know the truth.
• edited to correct the spell checker's "haloes" to the correct "haoles". I would usually leave such trivial changes alone, but with PaulW's (usual) drive by insults and the juxtaposition of haoles to haloes (cute eh?) I had to
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EO! (To dakine's post above)
Exactly, dakine. Thank you. Again.
JMO.
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Hysterics and racism together, dakine really shows his colors.
By the way, how about reading before posting, your spelling mistakes make you look even more ridiculous.
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quote:
Originally posted by dakine
With the exception of the queen, what people actually had their land stolen? Most of the landowners from the Hawaiian Kingdom era seemed to have retained their land
Considering that a large percentage of land, at the time of the overthrow, belonged to the government, which was a separate entity than the royal family,
So pre-contact nobody except the alii owned land, the biggest land theft was one alii nui stealing another alii nui's terrority. Like Kamehameha stealing the islands of Oahu, Maui and Kauai, correct?
quote:
and all that land was taken, as well as all the manipulative bs that took place behind the scenes by the likes of Charles Bishop and others, it's sort of hard to accept the premise that there wasn't any land stolen.
So no proof, just hard to accept premises, gotcha.
quote:
Keep in mind that the make up of the government itself was in part that of the same individuals that perpetuated the overthrow, and they were deeply involved in treachery long before the overthrow finalized their hold on the islands and had transferred large tracts to themselves as well as trusts and other entities that they controlled.
When one considers the way in which haoles took over the Kingdom, having acquired positions of power within government and poisoned the process long before the actual overthrow, it becomes very clear that even the way the Mahele was handled was skewed and biased towards the westerners that influenced the changes that were taking place. To consider how much of the land was actually transferred to Hawaiians verses quick claimed by the likes of Bishop Museum and other dummy entities set up by manipulative haoles it's a wonder that any Hawaiians got possession of land at all. So to say that all the Hawaiians had land and kept it since the Mahele is silly.
You can't have it both ways. Either the Hawaiian Kingdom were puppets of the evil haole's and never had self-rule or the Hawaiian Kingdom was controlled by Hawaiian Kings who sold away the land to the evil haole's. So what was the Mahele? a Hawaiian King allowing the Hawaiian people to hold land or a land grab by the evil haole's.
If it was a land grab by the evil haole's then the Hawaiian people never owned land by it was all taken by the haole puppet Kamehameha.
If it was a Hawaiian King giving land rights to his people then you can't say it was a haole trick. A Hawaiian King who does that for his people gets to dictate how it was done even if you don't agree with the results.
So what is it?
quote:
Consider if you will that of all the Hawaiians that were originally granted Kuleana very few actually were able to stake their claims. At the time it was required that they pay a fee, in coin, cash, that then was very rare and hard to acquire, and if they did not do so in a timely manner there were haoles in Honolulu standing by to pay the fee and make a quick claim on their unclaimed deeds.
It looks to me like it was a money grab and not a benevolent act and gave first right to the locals.
quote:
In other words long before the overthrow the haoles were perverting the process and stealing everything they could from the people of Hawaii.
So haole puppet, the locals never owned land (except the alii), so no land was stolen except if you were the queen, gotcha.
quote:
In other words Mtviewdude it is common to believe the popular myth of the history of land titles in Hawaii as so many do. That's ok,
Or there is the hard lesson that you don't want to accept. The Hawaiian Alii never gave a thought to their people. They used their only assets: the land and labor, to enriches themselves and live the good live at the expense of their people.
You can see that from before Kamehameha's death with the dismantling of the Kapu system, his successor abolishing hula and the hawaiian religion. Heck, didn't Kamemehameha appoint a haole alii nui for the big islands. The working to death of the people harvesting sandalwood, not for the benefit of the Hawaiian people, but to live like western royalty. Iolani palace, OHA. I can't remember a time in Hawaii history were the elite weren't selling out their people for personal gain.
It looks to me the Mahele was less about giving Hawaiian's land rights then it was filling the treasury and giving the origional stakeholders first rights to buy the land.
I know there is a desire to rebuild Hawaii culture and I applaud that, but at least build it on a foundation of honesty.
Let the Hawaiian Kingdom fade to history, rebuild to a time before that. Allow the people of Oahu, Maui and Kauai have their own say before they were conquered (well kauai wasn't conquered) by western weapons. Rebuild to a time before the Hawaiian Kings destroyed the Kapu system, destroyed the religion, sold off the land and resources for their own lavish lifestyles.
If it was really about culture and religion then pre-contact is the best course. If it about enriching a new group of alii, then trying to restore the Hawaii Kingdom would make sense, but at least be honest, at least that I can respect that.
Now is the time for the Hawaiian people to decide do their want western money and lifestyles or restoring the Hawaiian culture and traditions. After driving through the western looking subdivisions being built in Hawaiian Homelands, I pretty much know the answer.
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MarkP, another idea...check with Wood Valley, the Tibetan retreat ctr here on the big isle, surely they could tell you when the Dalai lama was here last. Then to HTH.
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Not trying to pick a fight, but this feels like a scavenger hunt and it shouldn't. I have googled many permutations of Dalai Lama, Hawaii visit, Hawaiian sovereignty, etc and I am still not finding what you spoke of. His last visit was in April of 2012, right? He arrived on April 14 and had various engagements on the 14th through the 16th. He left for California on the 17th, arriving there in the evening so possibly he could have attended another engagement in the morning here.
If he had said what you say he did I think I would have gotten a few hits in my searches. I feel like I should be ashamed about this but I would cackle gleefully if he had said such a thing. As I am not the only one with this bias it is strange that I am having such a hard time confirming it.
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
Not trying to pick a fight, but this feels like a scavenger hunt and it shouldn't. I have googled many permutations of Dalai Lama, Hawaii visit, Hawaiian sovereignty, etc and I am still not finding what you spoke of. His last visit was in April of 2012, right? He arrived on April 14 and had various engagements on the 14th through the 16th. He left for California on the 17th, arriving there in the evening so possibly he could have attended another engagement in the morning here.
If he had said what you say he did I think I would have gotten a few hits in my searches. I feel like I should be ashamed about this but I would cackle gleefully if he had said such a thing. As I am not the only one with this bias it is strange that I am having such a hard time confirming it.
If it's important for you to confirm I suggest calling or going to the HTH office and search the archives since you are not having luck online. If you still can't find it I'll look too, let me know.
Wanting to verify it is not something to be ashamed of, instead I think you are looking for a reality check, because the whole sovereignty scene is bizarre. There is no oppression. The US government has been nothing but incredibly helpful and good to a kingdom that was bankrupted by their king and wanted to become a state or territory of the US. The sons of the missionaries lobbied against and deceived the kingdom and all involved, but the US government was and still is stellar not to mention paying a ridiculous amount of welfare for decades to polynesian descendants even though the Kingdom of Hawaii had people of all races. It's classic crazy making and a form of group mental illness.
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