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If there are any cheering anti-TMT folks, I would be happy to know what they are cheering... 
Maybe not cheering, but the folks at OHA & DHHL are probably breathing a sigh of relief that they can appear to support their constiuents without giving up a dollar or an acre.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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quote:
Originally posted by knieft
If there are any cheering anti-TMT folks, I would be happy to know what they are cheering...
Edit smiley to opposite.
The rule of law.
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quote:
Originally posted by dakine
All this could have been prevented had the state learned from the Superferry debacle.
The TMT and Hawaii Superferry debacles are two vastly different situations. The Hawaii DOT improperly granted the Hawaii Superferry an HEPA exception, so they didn't have to do a EIS for their harbor improvements. However, the HSF's flawed business model ultimately killed the service.
The TMT, on the other hand, followed the law and all the processes required of them. It was the BLNR that ultimately screwed up. They improperly granted the CDUP before a contested case hearing, which denied the petitioners due process. I don't necessarily agree with this opinion, but this is what the highest court in the land decided.
I also figure the TMT will go through the process of obtaining the CDUP again. The HSC ordered, in part, the BLNR hold a new contested case hearing in lieu of the defective hearing held in 2012.
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how much patience the TMT has...
TMT doesn't have to suffer the "process" that brought them here; they can simply invoke international treaty obligations to force the US government (purported "owner") to abide by their permits.
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quote:
Originally posted by dakine
What are the alternative, Northern hemisphere, astronomical sites that would be good enough to host the TMT if Mauna Kea isn't available? Of course we all know about all the things that make Mauna Kea the best, but baring it's availability where could the TMT go?
How about Mount Saraswati? The current location of the Indian Astronomical Observatory. Located at:
32°46#8242;46#8243;N 78°57#8242;51#8243;E
It's kind of neat that when you click on the location pin it opens up a picture that shows this location and I see clouds.
Doesn't look like the optimal location for an optical telescope.
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That was a stunner of a decision. TMT was originally planned way back for Atacama, along with all the major European ground telescopes, and later relocated to Hawaii. The telescope level at Atacama is 16,000 feet with personnel at 9,000 feet. This is a photo of one of the personnel support sites, where astronomers and researchers work twelve hour shifts, from evening to morning.
http://cdn.eso.org/images/screen/mg_9001.jpg
One of the ESO observatories has a big resort next to it, Cerro Paranal, that has an indoor tropical setting pool.
http://cdn.eso.org/images/screen/potw1227b.jpg
So, it is possible TMT may go to Atacama. It isn't just about the height. Atacama field of view is the southern hemisphere TMT would have good coverage of the northern hemisphere. So, the subject line of this thread becomes "How soon is soon?".
"Aloha also means goodbye. Aloha!"
*Japanese tourist on bus through Pahoa, "Is this still America?*
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If one looks hard enough over mounds of documentation that TMT had to acquire to get permits. I am sure they could spot a lot of things that didn't have all the proper i's and t's dotted and crossed...
Someone took sides on this. It's the way the ball bounces I guess. I think TMT is doomed and should just pull out or get Obama to support it to make it happen.
In my mind, will need to some heavy pullers to move this pile of sh!t up the mountain. Pretty much sums up how I feel about the whole thing and Hawaii is rolled up in it, leaving a bad taste in my mouth. It's just a loss for the people of Hawaii. I guess more welfare and food stamps! Yeeeha!
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"So, it is possible TMT may go to Atacama. It isn't just about the height. Atacama field of view is the southern hemisphere TMT would have good coverage of the northern hemisphere. So, the subject line of this thread becomes "How soon is soon?"."
Could someone translate this for me, please?
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"How about Mount Saraswati? The current location of the Indian Astronomical Observatory."
No specific TMT site testing, poor seeing, little to no local infrastructure and no international agreements to build the TMT there. It would be much faster to go through the HI state re-approval process than build there. I believe the only options for the TMT are to go through the process here, which I suspect is the likely option, or revert to one of the other sites they have already tested, but if that happens they lose their competitiveness with the ELT.
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How about Mount Saraswati? The current location of the Indian Astronomical Observatory.
I heard it is sacred to the Hindus, so no go. 
So sweet though that dakine is helping the search for an acceptable site. Such a team player.
Cheers,
Kirt
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