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maybe Mr. Ha sees ... activists are successful only in depriving the offspring of long-time local families of any meaningful education and employment opportunities
Over on the Puna Politics forum dakine says:
We need jobs, jobs that are for many
So I would ask dakine, as it pertains to the TMT and Richard Ha, how many jobs have they created? How many jobs did the Protectors create?
“There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.”
-Joseph Brodsky
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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There's a difference between progressive activists and regressive activists. Those that seek change and those, like the rock-rollers and you, that fight change. I can well imagine that many locals are sick of mainland transplants coming here and saying "the people" don't need no stinkin' jobs.
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* keep in mind that over 66,000 people signed the petition... that's the number of people I know of that would fit the definition of those you are calling the "Protectors"
By your definition of who is a protector, a guy at the farmers market who says, hey, $2 bucks a pound for tomatoes? I should grow them! That guy would fall into the same category as Richard Ha, vegetable grower.
No, expending the effort to click an online link doesn't indicate to me the ability to work 80 hours a week to get a business off the ground and become a job creator. I would call the people camping for more than a week on Mauna Kea "protectors." I'll leave it at that, and leave it to each person reading this to decide for themselves if that particular group created more jobs than Richard Ha. Or the TMT.
“There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.”
-Joseph Brodsky
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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To be fair, both sides represent a group of Hawaiian people (never ALL people), and both sides have credible, formidable, and honorable people involved.
The kia'i (guards) who camped at Mauna Kea during the protest included teachers, students (UH and abroad), Maori ohana, Tahitian ohana, counselors, veterans, retired union workers, tour guides, a couple "famous" surfers, Hawaiian Kingdom representatives, musicians, self-employed mechanics (including aircraft), and a rotation of all walks of life. While the courts, especially the Supreme Court, made decisions, the kia'i kept the construction of TMT from being "shoved down our throats".
The subsequent arrests of protectors/protesters, when their cases went to court, most were ultimately dismissed, or went to trial to be found "not guilty". Mentioning this to point out the egregious abuse of the "process/law" by the State of Hawai'i, and all departments responsible. What a damn waste.
The other observation, since I was there on several occasions, and present almost a year to the date, on Mauna Kea (spent the night for the final stand off), the ones who stayed for weeks and months were not the only souls working towards the goal. Many, many others throughout the State (and perhaps, abroad), were working this "legal system" like the dickens. It worked. (Sorry, a tad OT; trying not to be offended by some comments about the people involved)
The continued debate of PUEO, Richard Ha (very good man), Judge Amano (whose roots are right here on this island), the protesters/protectors, jobs, science, education, for the keiki o ka aina, and all of the rhetoric boils down to one basic goal:
All parties want what is best for our keiki, for our communities, for our people, and for the future. Getting there is finding the elusive common ground.
I believe the first proper steps have been taken. Now, if the UH, BLNR, DLNR, AG's office, etc., would just address this issue and follow their own laws, we will be able to move forward. The State Auditor's Report(s) would be a good starting point to "make things right".
IMUA kakou!
JMO.
ETA: P.S. HAPPY FATHER'S DAY ALL! (Again, sorry, O/T)
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trying not to be offended by some comments about the people involved)
Yes, I tried myself, but some of the comments made are not only incorrect, but they are repeated, and I've noticed in the past those falsehoods then begin to be taken up by other posters. An attribute of humans is that when they hear something a number of times, they begin to believe it's true.
I prefer a civil discussion among people with differing points of view. But it's one thing to talk about a dog & disagree whether it's sense of smell or sense of hearing is the most acute, it's an entirely different matter when someone insists its not a dog at all, but a cat. Repeatedly.
“There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.”
-Joseph Brodsky
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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"All parties want what is best for our keiki, for our communities, for our people, and for the future"
I'm sure that's what everyone wants, but how delaying the building of an additional telescope on a mountain benefits anyone escapes me.
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I only grabbed at the 66,000 because it was the only concrete, published, number I could think of... I think your definition is a bit restrictive I would suggest opihikao's to be a reasonable definition.
One word, "protectors," and three different descriptions. There is no Protector I.D. Card, so by its very nature the term will have a flexible designation.
I agree there are many sincere, devoted, intelligent people opposed to the construction of the TMT, but personally I wouldn't refer to them as protectors. Some people would. It's more a matter of personal preference than a legal term.
“There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.”
-Joseph Brodsky
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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Well, now that dakine has opened up the definition of Mauna Kea "protectors", consider that these rocks, placed in such a way to cause a collision...
http://mauinow.com/files/2016/05/rocks-o...ess-Rd.jpg
...were replaced in their original spot by observatory staff before something bad happened. Surely they are protectors as well.
Decommissioning some of the many outdated telescopes atop Maunakea should be a state priority before allowing any others including the TMT's to be built.
Hawaii may have the best place on this planet to study the stars, so why doesn't the Hawaiian people build their own observatories?
If only 13 telescopes can be allowed to operate atop maunakea then why help make a foreign TMT project the last possible telescope?
Large Telescopes may truly be able to provide hundreds of well paying jobs for the Hawaiian communities today and for the hawaiian generations to come. IF they were allowed to manage their own resources, infrastructure, and Mountains summits, jmo
Once again, hawaiians and protectors are not against science or astronomy like some here suggest. So why not allow them the future opportunities to build their own telescope projects atop their mountain, if they so choose? Maybe the hawaiian communties would also be willing to give a million or two a year to the Canadian, or Chinese keiki for educational purposes, jmo.
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gypsy69, the master lease for the Mauna Kea astronomy precicnt is slated to expire in 2033. That is 17 years from now. There is no guarantee the master lease will be extended, so there is a good chance the existing astronmomy facilities won't exist up on Maun Kea past then.
By the way, most of the telescopes up there are not outdated, as you allege. The University of Hawaii will be decomissioning one of the best telescopes, UKIRT, which has a sterling track record.
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