Ohia Ash shown to Improve Ohia Health

[Slow Walker]

quote:

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Originally posted by geochem

Maybe to offer a little balance in the JBF-bashing going on, in the early days of the recognition of the ROD, surveys done on the locations where ohia were going down indicated that much of the die-off was occurring along the Kilauea rift zone where there were recognized surface fractures and ground cracks. JB and others who had the data suspected that it could be associated with any number of processes that might be occurring at those locations ranging from ground movement along the fractures causing stresses on the root systems, or possibly thermal or carbon dioxide emissions from the fractures could be responsible. Hence their early interest in the root systems. They were, and continue to, follow good scientific protocols: systematically gather and interpret observational data,form a hypothesis, and develop new observational data to test and/or disprove/modify that hypothesis. Going off in twenty different directions based on uncertain/conflicting/undocumented anecdotal claims isn't good science and, when you have limited time and limited resources as most University researchers do, it isn't productive.

And your glowing opinion of folk-medicine notwithstanding, although some have been shown to have a biochemical basis in reality, most were unproductive if not counterproductive... If bitten by a snake, I'd much prefer anti-venom to shamanism any day.

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Well I would like to go back to the meeting I talked about with JB in Nanawale.
This has to do with as far as I know his first guess of what was going on with the die off of ohia.
As the report I talked about is not on line as I know I can only state what is on the report I have.
It is a photo of lower Puna that was taken from satellite.
It shows fault lines and dieback markings. And then it shows the ROADS DRIVEN by the survey. Its doesnt show are mention anything about JB getting out and sniffing about. He only stated that he sent his jar heads out to dig for roots in the tunnels as he THOUGHT is was due to drought. Sheit mon I've been here over 35 years and seen many droughts without dieoff.
So I am wondering does he ever take a look at reality or does he just look over what his minions bring back to him?
Has JB ever got his hands in the ohia dieback filth. If so please provide verification of his sweating in the Puna outback. Can you even show a picture of him doing real physical work? Just a picture?
Oh and after reading this again I dont see your going off in 20 different direction to be valid. OG is only going in one main direction at this time. It is using ohia ash as a possible stop or slowdown to the spread of ROD.
Why cant the university of Hawaii try a plot of that experiment.?

[Jimbo2017]

Looks like Ohia Dieback was a thing back in the 70's - Google searches brought up a research plan from '74 - https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bi.../1/003.pdf

and an update - http://manoa.hawaii.edu/hpicesu/speci/003.pdf

and an outcome in '83 - https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/handle/10125/730

So if Dr. Friday was working from the literature, this was his starting point. Then the symptoms were different, so they investigated diseases and found a fungus. Seems straightforward to me?


Mauka Hilo-side

[Slow Walker]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jimbo2017

Looks like Ohia Dieback was a thing back in the 70's - Google searches brought up a research plan from '74 - https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bi.../1/003.pdf

and an update - http://manoa.hawaii.edu/hpicesu/speci/003.pdf

and an outcome in '83 - https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/handle/10125/730

So if Dr. Friday was working from the literature, this was his starting point. Then the symptoms were different, so they investigated diseases and found a fungus. Seems straightforward to me?


Mauka Hilo-side

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Yes Friday spoke of the above during that meeting in Nanawale.
I stated die back from DROUGHT. Drought is not a pathogen.

Finding the fungus seems to be a cause of this disease. I am not arguing about that. So it is Plus 1 in your experiment there and minus 1 on drought,minus 2 on carbon dioxide in the roots,and more than likely minus more on other possibilities. That is what happens when you test theories.

So why cant you test ohia ash as a possible help to the problem?

Still it would be nice to see a picture of Dr.Friday with a little dirt under his nails,a few calluses on his hands and sweat on his brow. To know a problem you have to get into the mud. Otherwise visions of couch potato prop into some of our minds.

[ohiagrrl]

Good morning all, Maybe an undergrad could throw some CF into a petri dish with ash/KOH/caustic lye and tell us what happens? Most of us can guess the results but since inferring simple steps of an equation is not "good science" , I will provide the material. Contact me.

I'm pretty sure Geochem and others may want to dial back on the notion that the official position at U of H is that it is "unproductive" to seek results. Are students going to be excited by that? At what point is science for science sake too much? An easy equation regarding tree care has been handed to you ALL, just to look at, and what some of you scholars are defending is the fortress of erudition, instead of the forest. Bad move. I would also remind those of you being verbal about the practices of First People being "primitive" and therefore unworthy of consideration to remember where you live and upon whose shoulders you climb. Thanks for all your input SW and Jimbo. I'd also like to hear from some ethnobotonists on the more primary elements of this ash purification experiment to counterbalance some of the 'establishment' perspectives. University and community should be working together, not fighting, it is inefficient.
Have a nice day.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

University and community should be working together, not fighting, it is inefficient.

That would be a reasonable approach.
ohiagrrl, when you started this thread it appeared to be an attempt to share your discoveries and findings about ohia wood ash with the public. Over time the discussion veered farther afield into the question of why the university, and one researcher in particular at the university, doesn't provide resources for your theory.

As I'm sure you recognize, individuals don't always have time, money or supplies available to carry out a complete and thorough investigation, no matter how promising initial results might appear. It's the same for the university and teachers or researchers at the university.


Maybe an undergrad could throw some CF into a petri dish

Yes, perhaps you could drive down to UHH, put a notice up on the bulletin in the department where this type of research takes place. Ask for help from a graduate student, or undergrad. It's early in the semester so you may find a student looking for a class project, who could work with you on organizing your results, scheduling ash applications, keeping field notes and reports of your ongoing study, including preliminary results.

Keep us informed and in the meantime others here may set up separate experiments which supplement your findings. If you have a student associate familiar with the standard presentation of scientific studies to assist you in preparing and writing your findings, it may even make it's way to the people you want to reach.

"Only fear real things, such as minds full of delusions." -Last Aphorisms

[ohiagrrl]

I'd like to point out that I tried hard to Stonewall when the "one researcher" was repeatedly brought up. Then when the initial theory was sent to the "one researcher" and he felt compelled to challenge it publicly without investigation, I felt it reasonable to defend my position. Others are starting to wonder why University won't act either. If you (amongst others) are citing budgetary reasons as to why biggest 'brain trust' is the S.Pacific isn't interested in lending more of a hand with potentially the biggest crisis this island has seen yet, I'm seeing a tiny violin. My lack of funding doesn't kill my curiosity.

Thank you however, for your continuing curiosity. All of your suggestions are in various stages already but the more folks involved, the mo' bettah!

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

My lack of funding doesn't kill my curiosity.

I'm glad to hear it.
It took James Dyson not just 15 years, but 5127 attempts to perfect and bring his vacuum cleaner to market.

Yes, I do realize ohia and ROD have a potentially more limited time frame in which to achieve results. For most people working on a project, any project, it never proceeds as quickly as they expect it to, or would like it to move forward. Which makes it all the more important to not become distracted along the way if one method isn't showing the results you'd hoped for.

"Only fear real things, such as minds full of delusions." -Last Aphorisms

[ohiagrrl]

Re distractions: True, but discussing what hasn't worked is valid especially in regards to those designing public policy. Re: Budgetary concerns, it may be naive but I would think that any foundation providing a semblance of willingness to explore positive results during a crisis could reasonably expect to see more funding from State legislature than simply providing scare tactics. The last liberty known to Americans is to vote with our wallets. Federal funding is likely to be bleak in any event.

There are so many valid questions this experiment raises, it could be broken down into many specific experiments. It could probably fill an entire curriculum. I am currently in not much more of a position than to provide field notes, yet through some of my basic premises on arboreal/ elemental deconstruction, there is some promise of evolution in how we as a species combat blight.

[ohiagrrl]

So the wind was really blowing yesterday and it would be safe to assume that the Ambrosia's will be on the move. Branches fell and the inhabitants may be searching for new homes. Diatomaceous Earth pierces bug shell, is non toxic and can be purchased at the feed store for cheap. Sprinkling around the base of dead trees or fallen branches could help stop the spread but would only work during dry spells, rain would just wash it away.

Slow Walker Pow Wow via email, please. ohiasolutions@gmail.com

[ohiagrrl]

Hey guys, so "Baby Tree" an off shoot of an old, high value, "Mother" tree nearby, started presenting with ROD symptoms a few weeks ago. This was the only visible case of ROD on our property since last year around this time. On "Baby Tree" first one branch turned brown, then another, so I immediately peppered around the tree with wood ash and found a spot in the lawn where a root was exposed, threw some ash in the puka and then plugged up the lawn, I also heavily ashed around the high value Mother Tree. It didn't rain in those first few days so I also watered "Baby Tree" with 5 gallon buckets of ash water. Baby tree lost about four branches but the crown branches of the tree appear to be holding on. I believe the lower branches that perished were attached to one stem which got choked out while the upper branches are on another stem or nutrition line. I believe the Potassium Hydroxide in wood ash kills both the fungus and baby beetle in the active nutrition lines of the tree but that the dead lines maintain the infection. Keeping the surrounding area inhospitable to migrating beetles seems like the way to go. More will be known with some time.

So while U of H people are figuring out how this blight spreads on their own terms, which (according to various source), appears to be the primary goal of attending researchers, we can also participate in renewed forestry health. If you think about it, residential forests may be the only hope of saving the Ohia at all. If 13,000 acres (out of 50,000 total acres) died last year alone in a span of 10 years, then the blight is going exponential. The more bugs there are, the more they breed, and so on. Much of the State Parks are inaccessible to County workers who seem hesitant to participate in "controlled burns" because powerful winds shift all the time, so there isn't much of an element of control. This is up to us, Puna. We do not have another decade to figure this out, maybe only another year or two until it is just too late.

So let's talk about how hearty the Ohia are and pardon me if I repeat data. We literally have had Ohia trees come back from the dead after peppering them with their own ash. When you think about how often Ohia shoot up new growth from the stump of a cut tree, especially stumps of older trees, one has to imagine that Ohia are spirited and have a strong life force in their roots. While under current conditions, they fall ill very easily, despite all outward appearances they want to live. Root connectivity of certain copses (tree groups) may both hurt and help the trees. If one tree gets Ambrosia Beetles, it gets infected with the Ceratocystis Fimbriata and then through shared roots that pathogen may spread, guiding the new waves of beetles to the next infected trees. These beetles amongst other members of the insect world infect their host with a fungi so that their young may feast. This is true of mites and other critters so it is safe to assume that the beetles are actually following a survival directive. So when you watch clusters of trees fall together, this should make sense. It is more confusing when two trees are side by side and one gets ill and the other does not. They may not share roots. But root connectivity can work to their advantage too if you are peppering them with wood ash. If one tree gets fed and another does not, if their roots are connected then both trees get fed. My feeling is that it is best to feed all trees living and dead, so that if nothing else, the surrounding soils become impassable to migrating beetles, and they do seem to be on the move this time of year, at least in Upper Puna. My feeling is that they walk between trees and that may be the primary reason why it's bad to track the fungal pathogen on our shoes or tires because beetles may follow those trails. The ROD website had this posted on one of their pages:

"The ROD spores are sticky and can easily be moved in soil or on plant material from surrounding areas."

The ROD guys have been using spray alcohol to clean tools and shoes with but if you run out, mix a little wood ash with water and it becomes a light solution of potassium hydroxide which should melt the sticky stuff encasing the fungal pathogen that then draws the bugs. A potent mix is 2 tblsp in a mason jar so be careful, doesn't take much. A couple handfuls in a five gallon bucket is a nice light solution. I am going to start peppering my driveway with just ash and the rains should do the rest of the work to keep fungal tracking to a minimum. If any of you want to make ash water and keep it around, saving old Alcohol and Hydrogen peroxide bottles (#2 plastic) are the way to go. Strain through coffee filters and wear gloves and eye gear. Get a dedicated plastic funnel. Ash water (potassium hydroxide) dissolves fats so it is very drying to skin. Old school methods for making soap out of this stuff are all over the internet. Can get spray bottle nozzles at Wally World for $1. More later.