HPP mailbox vote

[reni]

Larudnab,

Thank you for posting your letter on Punatalk. You bring to the fore many excellent points in a constructive, courteous manner.

[DTisme]

Larudnab: Yes, thank you for posting. Good points, all.

mermaid: thanks for posting the upcoming agenda. I'm glad it will be taped and posted online. If I don't make it - or make it then leave bc of yelling - that will definitely help. I have many questions that I'd like to see answered.

Obie: you mention that the road maintenance the mailboxes are two different issues. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. My point was that I cannot support the mailbox effort, at this point, bc I can no longer trust HPPOA to take care of the roads. i.e., If they can't maintain what we already have, how can I trust them to maintain something new? Something with added kinds of maintenance (lighting, graffiti, etc). That's why I linked the two. Once the roads and easements get taken care of throughout the park, I will wholeheartedly support the mailbox effort.

Btw, does anyone know if the bylaws talk about late fees? I think late fees on road bill is only 10%. (sorry, don't have most recent bill in hand)

Edited to fix repetition.

[reni]

"Once the roads and easements get taken care of throughout the park, I will wholeheartedly support the mailbox effort."

This is the purpose of our association. We need our easements maintained and our roads drive able. The hazardous dust remains a threat to our residents and our Association's funds. This is enough for our Board to contend with.
There is no doubt to me that the talk of providing mail boxes to all property owners is founded in good intentions. Most likely , there were good intentions involved when previous board members met in Executive session to award road maintenance work, good intentions to stock pile our green waste on Association land and most likely good intentions on the part of some when they fired our previous employees. I do not say these things sarcastically, some really did believe they were acting in the best interest of our Association. This can never be if the laws that govern us are broken with their actions.
The point is, the road to HPP hell is paved with good intentions. And unless this board can produce a letter , signed by our attorney, that the Hawaiian Paradise Board of Directors has in his legal opinion, the legal authority to assess each owner for the cost of 8800 mailboxes & that this Association can legally utilize the proposed land for building the proposed 8800 mail boxes , this action should not occur.

[Katarina]

I see no Finance Committee on the agenda. As for "mailboxes" ... the board better start being responsible and budgeting for it because it is against our bylaws to assess us for it.

[mermaid53]

The point is, the road to HPP hell is paved with good intentions. And unless this board can produce a letter , signed by our attorney, that the Hawaiian Paradise Board of Directors has in his legal opinion, the legal authority to assess each owner for the cost of 8800 mailboxes & that this Association can legally utilize the proposed land for building the proposed 8800 mail boxes , this action should not occur.

Apparently the board's attorney told them they could overturn the membership's vote and proceed w/CS. I still wonder how that happened. Yes the board has ultimate decision but they are supposed to listen to the membership's desires. If the membership didn't want CS, then they weren't supposed to proceed. They took that away from us.

If the membership had been involved in the decision, we wouldn't be dealing w/neglect of our roads, easements and road safety today. If member's were involved, we would've mandated that the board carefully partner w/the FC to find the $ w/out taking away our road maint budget, and ensure the road crew's job to complete all road maintenance be #1 priority. The board told us, "you voted for us to make these decisions, so it's not for you to micromanage us!!!" Heard this several times during mtgs by a few reps. There are remnants of them still on the board.

Most of the reps these days aren't voted by us, they're filling vacancies. Most are brand new, didn't attend board mtgs, have NO history except what their peers tell them. They took CS business behind closed doors and it's still going on today. The FC is required to know all those financial details per our bylaws and have input. They are breaking our bylaws.

My point is, the CS is a result of their atty consultation. So I have little confidence in their attys.

[kalakoa]

Apparently the board's attorney told them they could overturn the membership's vote

Am I reading this right? HPP residents pay for both the Board and the Attorney, but neither the Board nor the Attorney actually represent the needs and desires of HPP residents?

Yet people still believe that "if only we could replace the renegade Board, everything would get better"?

Maybe after they burn a few $million more?

What's wrong with you people?

[Kenney]

You said it all Kalakoa. I don't see how altering the BOD will change anything for the better either. It seems that every time we have a change of BOD, there are always remnants of the old BOD who poison the minds of the new members against the Membership. We have seen a good example of this in the posts of a very short time member who expresses his rage against the Membership with threats and name calling on this site and others. It's an ugly situation. I wish I Didn't have to be involved in it in any way, but alas, I bought land here decades ago, my home is here, so this is my problem.

In the early 80's, the few people here really didn't care much about the "Association" because the yearly fee was negligable (can't remember, 25$? It was really low. ) When the potholes got bad the neighbor's all shared the cost of materials and shoveled it ourselves. As long as the car didn't fall into a lava tube, we didn't care. At least the roads were better than HA. Gravel/cinder were brought in regularly if not often, and the roads were much better than now.

Things changed when a past BOD decided to borrow millions of $ to pave the roads. A vote was taken and everybody I knew voted against it. Nevertheless, $12, 000,000.00 was borrowed in our names! Since then, fees have gone up so fast! 100, 200, 300$ and rising. Add to this concern, threatened fines from DOH for the dust that our roads have turned to, increased Insurance due to Legal entanglements resulting from BOD Actions, constant Legal Fees for opinions regarding the BOD's insistence on ignoring the Membership's votes and wishes, now a bill for mailboxes , this while our roads are NOT being maintained and have turned to dust.

Not everybody here is made of $. Lots of us live on fixed incomes. Unexpected fees, fines, bills are not budgeted for. If HPPOA does not spend our $ legally and responsibly it will cost us more!

None of us wants to stop progress here. We are not anti BOD. We just don't want to be legally responsible for their misadventures.

If I pay my phone bill and I have no phone service I'd complain. I pay my Road Mainatinance fee but get no service. How is that ok?
Are we really expected to just shut up and keep sending HPPOA more $?
Dream on....

[mermaid53]

I don't see how altering the BOD will change anything for the better either. It seems that every time we have a change of BOD, there are always remnants of the old BOD who poison the minds of the new members against the Membership.

Along w/the jockeying for power and agendas between reps. We've had 3 pres's in 6 mos. Deposing this rep, kicking off that rep. I heard this may be going on w/the addition of new reps. Let's see what happens in the upcoming wks. Historically it's not the members who chase reps away, it's their board peers.

The following is fact...and reason for my reluctance and low confidence in board atty consultations.

After learning the board was intending to CS all our dirt roads around Apr/May 2015, a few members asked for a membership voice considering the cost $300,000- $400,000 per year and it affecting the entire park and our monies for years to come. They thought this should be a membership decision (approx 8,8800 of us), not a 9 person decision. The board viewed this as member hostility, hence the name "group of 10" and incited members against them. Yes, this started way back then. They weren't hostile, but were obviously getting in their way. Had nothing to do w/their stance on CS but on the red flags going up on the business of it.

At a membership mtg in Oct 2015, the members voted for the following: That the board would give the members a CS presentation at a following membership mtg. To detail the process of laying chip seal, outsource or in house, the complete costs, the ups and downs of the product, the scheduling of which roads got done first etc. to follow w/a Q & A. During Q & A, questions on how the road crew would keep up w/their main duties would have come up, engineer involvement, permits required, have a test road first if the membership was leaning towards CS, and where the $ would come from. There was talk that the contractor they were going to use had no license and was involved in Orchidland's issue w/his CS work. There was only 1 bid, not 3 as required by our corporate policy. The board and GM weren't to take any action chip sealing until this presentation and vote occurred. Then after hearing the presentation, the members would vote yea or nay.

That was the whole motion that members voted for and passed. Any smart person would agree this would be a prudent decision before letting the board take on a project of this magnitude that would have a huge affect on our community and our pocket book.

The board pres (new Dist 5 rep's husband) asked why the board shouldn't move forward on CS when it's just a small % of members who voted for this presentation. We had the # required for a quorum and that pres obviously didn't know state law 414D. Any vote at a membership mtg (as long as a quorum is met) is "the acts of the membership." I emailed this state law 414D to the board, it was ignored.

I would've expected that if the board was going to do a presentation, they'd rally the members to attend and participate in this important decision. That would be a very diff board.
___________
The board pres's update msg in the Jan 2016 Annual Update that came w/our road fee bills stated this:

The board has chosen to use chip seal to mitigate the dust problems on our gravel roads. We are starting w/two test roads. Chip seal is approx 25-30% cheaper than the cost of asphalt (depending how it's applied).

The board sought a legal opinion on whether the membership may overturn a policy adopted by the Board concerning road maintenance matters. The attorney's response is, "Because of the specific delegation of authority to the Board concerning the maintenance, repair and improvement of the subdivisions roadways, and to adopt policies concerning same, it does not appear that the membership may override a Board policy concerning the roadway maintenance".
__________

1. More like dust problems on our powder roads, not gravel roads. That's the main source of our dust issues today.
2. The GM later called those 2 roads, "training roads". There were never ever any test roads.
3. Policy???

I don't know what any of you think about the atty "decision" but to me it's not definitive by any means and the membership didn't overturn any policy, it was the board overturning the acts of the membership. The board had never voted for CS at any board mtg. (Check the board minutes).

I've not seen any changes in them yet. Still breaking our bylaws.

Hope they pay attention to Larudnab's board letter which was very well written. Hit very important key points of good business decisions.
Edited for grammer purposes.

[Old Croc]

"The Board can do whatever they want. The membership doesn't matter." -- Craig Crelly
"The scum of the people are most Tyrannical when they get the Power, and treat their Betters with greatest insolence." -- Mary Astell
"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." -- Thomas Jefferson
"A lie told often enough becomes truth." -- Vladimir Lenin
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." -- Rahm Emanuel

[Slow Walker]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Croc

"The Board can do whatever they want. The membership doesn't matter." -- Craig Crelly
"The scum of the people are most Tyrannical when they get the Power, and treat their Betters with greatest insolence." -- Mary Astell
"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." -- Thomas Jefferson
"A lie told often enough becomes truth." -- Vladimir Lenin
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." -- Rahm Emanuel

---

) “It’s morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money.”-- W.C.Fields