New poll on big island shows strong TMT support

[MarkD]

Whew. Here it goes....

[Rob Tucker]

ohiagrrl,

Humankind has been occupying land on top of grave sites since long before there was a language sophisticated enough to have a phrase like "grave site".
This is true here in Hawaii too.

[ohiagrrl]

Respectfully Rob, the mountaintop of Mauna a Wakea was never inhabited by anyone before the astronomers arrived in the last handful of decades, post colonization, or ever. It was and always has been Kapu. Even Ali'i visited the hallowed grounds. The only residents were the dead and dying.

The genetic material that makes up the soil on the top of the "Mountain of God" should be protected if nothing else as part of Hawaiian cultural heritage, from a scientific point of view.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/scien...-dirt.html

[Rob Tucker]

Respectully ohiagrrl,

King Kamehameha II overturned the kapu system in 1819. Captain Cook didn't do it. Kamehameha II did it. So saying "it has always been kapu" seems incorrect.

Abolishing the kapu system is no small thing and applies broadly and narrowly.

[ohiagrrl]

That doesn't change the fact that no one ever built atop Mauna Kea before the astronomers. Kapu is alive and well in Hawaii regardless of what King Kam II was forced, tricked or seduced into enacting by law.

One Aunty tells of her grandfather who had been gifted large tracts of land in Waikiki and Diamondhead by Queen Emma for years of faithful service, who was then tricked into signing his land rights away one drunken night. Not shocking that the family could never get it back.
Aunty seems very westernized but even she believes the lava overtook Kalapana because Westerners were urinating in the Queen's Bath.

[Rob Tucker]

Whatever.

ohiagrrl,

You're cherry picking your kapu. If you wanted to be consistent and place yourself and all of modern society back under the kapu system here you and everyone else that wasn't ali`i would absolutely hate it. But for you it is convenient to selectively use a small segment of kapu to support your rather weak theory.

[ohiagrrl]

Kapu is as much a state of mind and cultural guide for traditional Hawaiians as "Kosher" is for the peoples of Judea or the laws of "Confucianism" is for many Chinese and Asian sects. Outlawing a religion is just anti- American and it hasn't changed how many locals still think and interact with each other, their environment or outsiders. "Whatever" is dismissive. This is a part of the larger conversation taking place away from the peeps of Punatalk whether it suits you or not. Wars are fought over such issues. We are lucky this is just a battle of ideology.

The banning of the Kapu system by King Kam II was structured to pave the way for an unimpeded land grab and none of us can say whether His Royal Highness was aware of this or not as the anniversary of the event was nearly 200 years ago. Kapu is now being argued against in terms of legalese that would allow or prevent a land usage entitlement atop the mountain. Kapu exists as a way of life outside these capitalistic endeavors.

[Rob Tucker]

Whatever, If the kapu system was reinstalled you would leave these islands at a fast run.

In the past all the land was owned and controlled by the ali`i. A small number of self entitled people who ruled over everyone else. That was replaced by the Hawaiian people themselves with the people in control instead of a small clique of rulers dispensing death by clubbing on kapu breakers.

So in the here and now you are free to cherry pick which individual segments of the kapu system you want to worship and you can reject the ones you want to (and do) reject. In the old way you would be clubbed to death. In the today way you get to complain all you want. Who really wants o go back? You? Really?

[MarkD]

Fair exchange here.

Rob, can I please get a response to the topic of anti-TMT views being posted on telescope discoveries instead of here, where they belong (see that site). Contrary to what some might speculate, I am not an internet agitator; up until a month ago, I had only a passing knowledge of threads or trolls.

My interest is the fair exchange of information, as exemplified by what traditionally occurred in newspaper editorial pages. (I have 5 years of journalism experience in the 1980s). Newspapers had a logical process. Here, and apparently in most other online forums, it is near anarchy.

I guess I understand the insults and people not genuinely desiring to have a discussion (but just making flippant comments). (which some of the senior commentators here do part of the time.)

I do not understand disruption of threads. Why not ban these people? Do you lack the capacity?

[Rob Tucker]

Mark, I was under the impression were were discussing anti-TMT and pro-TMT views.

I ban people very reluctantly.