Island Coffee farms looked at by ICE officials.

[Johnd]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tink

Hard to believe that a farmers overhead, no matter what he grows legally can afford flights from the mainland for a dozen or so workers, even at charter rate if they were to co-op expenses on the plane. The larger farms have to explain everything to the IRS via bookkeepers and accountants, and it is not worth the fines to them for using undocumented workers if caught.

Community begins with Aloha

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Is not that hard to believe. There are established conduits to bring this people in. The workers usually pay the coyotes. As far as explain to the IRS! Lol! Give us a break, will you.

It is not their natural ethic!' It is hundred of years of social conditioning. These are not your educated masses, there are native people used to hard work because otherwise they don't eat. Not one mixed Central American illegal probably went to school, these are dislocated farmers or people with enough desperation to do what they have to to gain a foothold here....once they are stable they don't work that hard. Ask the fat cats in California who need to have a revolving door of cheap labor to have someone take care of their kids for pennies on the dollar. We are not benefactors, we are exploiters. They are slaves for a while, but not forever.

I don't blame anyone from not taking that backbreaking work, the state knows very well what is happening, but just like in California, they are looking the other way.
If these people were paid just wages and workmans comp then it would be fair labor competition, but is not!. When they get hurt they are out! Enjoy your brew.

All the large and small farms are doing this. Go and find out by yourselves.

jdo

[PaulW]

Okay, you can't name a single farm that does this. Got it.

Some of the avocado farm use Little Green Men because they can blend in. I won't say which ones, find out by yourself.

[Tink]

You are right about the workers paying their way to where work is, either thru coyote, or by buying their own ticket and work visa. I know this from my Ohana farming 1000 acres of wheat and almonds, and a very good friend who has about 5000 acres in peaches, cherries and corn. Both use legit immigrants and make a profit only due to their size. Just to buy a bare root peach tree runs them around 75.00 each, and it takes 2 to three years to produce with the hybrid they use. Not your HD home garden variety by any means.
In other observations, I have seen many farms under 20 acres struggle, or go broke using the same farming practices with labor, fuel costs and maintenence on the equipment, etc. due to what the "middle man" will pay them so he gets a profit when he sells to the market. This goes for commercial fishing as well.
The 5000 acre farm I mentioned earlier is currently in process of re planting the orchards to accept modern harvesting equipment to bring their profit margin up to avoid home developers from taking over the land and make their venture profitable as migrant workers have been fading off the last few years, and he anticipates even tougher years to follow.
Going back to the small farm, how much does it cost them to grow his coffee, harvest, make equipment payments, pay a roaster to cook his beans, purchase packaging, pay labor, and find a middle man who will pay a fair price for his product? There is a reason the IRS explains you have to file a business plan, and one has to show a profit at least once every seven years. That is why they look at the books in an audit, as most small farms started for the "write off" to support their lavish home, as quite a few "new farmers" do.
I agree in the comment of a work/gov assistance program in that if you prove you work 20 hours at minimum wage a week the guv matches pay for the other 20 missing hours o give a basic standard of living. No work, the guv gives you enough to eat and nothing more. Full disability, whether mental or physical, gets full benefits from the guv. That itself, I believe will balance the budget and give all a bit more quality of life.

Community begins with Aloha

[MarkD]

Quotes from above: “I wonder what the farmers think of your grand plan to have food stamp recipients and the homeless work for them? They either can't work or don't want to. What could possibly go wrong?” and “I don't blame anyone from not taking that backbreaking work.”

I am 61, a white collar worker by occupation, and can still do 3 hours of weed eating in the sun. Up until my 40s I did 5-6 hours of farm work a day (on weekends). In my 20s-30s I did a full day.

True that most people do not like farm work. We also have many people who do not like any work. But if the crackdown on illegals continues, then the farm labor shortage will grow worse. Solutions?

It is unfortunate that we have our legacy of slavery, and also the history of chain gangs in the southeastern U.S. Both systems compelled people to work all day, often to point of physical injury.

If we can get away from our belief that farm labor must inevitably be oppressive, maybe progress can be made.

Our island’s coffee farms seem a rather moderate form of farm labor. Plenty of shade, the activity of bean picking does not seem particularly rigorous. Could we possibly impose a 2-4 hour workday on Hawaii Island residents who get government checks and laze around all day drinking and smoking weed. No?

[Johnd]

quote:

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Originally posted by Johnd

quote:

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Originally posted by PaulW

Okay, you can't name a single farm that does this. Got it.

Some of the avocado farm use Little Green Men because they can blend in. I won't say which ones, find out by yourself.

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Go and figure out by yourself! We have done plenty volunteer work in Kona with hurt, displaced and abused Central Americans to know what I am talking about. I not only speak fluent Spanish, but I lived in Southamerica for eons to understand the culture and where they come from when they talk among themselves. Unless you have a small family farm or a woofers hellhole , the rest employ illegals.!


jdo

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jdo

[Johnd]

quote:

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Originally posted by MarkD

Quotes from above: “I wonder what the farmers think of your grand plan to have food stamp recipients and the homeless work for them? They either can't work or don't want to. What could possibly go wrong?” and “I don't blame anyone from not taking that backbreaking work.”

I am 61, a white collar worker by occupation, and can still do 3 hours of weed eating in the sun. Up until my 40s I did 5-6 hours of farm work a day (on weekends). In my 20s-30s I did a full day.

True that most people do not like farm work. We also have many people who do not like any work. But if the crackdown on illegals continues, then the farm labor shortage will grow worse. Solutions?

It is unfortunate that we have our legacy of slavery, and also the history of chain gangs in the southeastern U.S. Both systems compelled people to work all day, often to point of physical injury.

If we can get away from our belief that farm labor must inevitably be oppressive, maybe progress can be made.

Our island’s coffee farms seem a rather moderate form of farm labor. Plenty of shade, the activity of bean picking does not seem particularly rigorous. Could we possibly impose a 2-4 hour workday on Hawaii Island residents who get government checks and laze around all day drinking and smoking weed. No?

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I am sorry but you don't appear to have a clue what farm work is all about. You make sound like vacation. Go work for a ...day in one of those farms, and then come back to debate this issue

jdo

[MarkD]

Here we go again. Another insult about being "clueless" directed at me. We have a 10-acre farm in Opihikao. Scores of avocado trees, each of which necessitated large holes being dug. Dozens of other trees and plantings. I am not going to detail all the farm work I have done in the past 25 years.

Over the decades we have hired several down and out/homeless people on our farm. The experience worked out pretty well for them; after a few months, they developed some good work habits and became productive. One ended up buying his own property and now is productive on his small property.

I appreciate that your perspective is from "displaced and abused Central Americans."

But I venture to say that there are quite a few people who work the land in Puna. Many of us do not have all these negatives and "can't be done" attitudes about farming and working the land every day.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Even Mexican children as young as five are cherry picking for next to nothing.

I have hired workers* to grow and pick vegetables. Here is an example of the child worker discussion:
ADULT (Parent) WORKER: "I can't come in today. I can't find a baby sitter."

The farm owner now has to decide, is he better off with no worker, or a worker with a child in tow. If you think the farm owner is getting free child slave labor, find yourself a 5 year old. Any 5 year old. Boy, girl, white, Hispanic, black, etc... Ask them to do any chore. How'd they do? How long did they work before getting distracted? How much would you pay them for the work they did?

When the farmer hires a worker who brings along a child, he doesn't get free labor, he gets a worker who is also watching their child, so they accomplish less than usual.

The farmer, however, does get an extra worker to come in that day, so it's better than nothing.
The worker doesn't have to stay home and watch their child, so they can work, and get paid. Which is better than not getting paid.

It's not an ideal situation for either owner or worker, but it's better than the alternative.

* Back in the 1980's. All legal born and raised American citizens.

[Frank]

only solution is pay by the pound...worked in the cotton fields of Texas in the early 50s...100 lbs cotton = $$.50...we pulled lots of cotton and didn't get hurt by it

edit to add - this was a fair price to pay for the farmer back then...have no idea what is fair for the coffee today

[MarkD]

Good points. We can all agree that immigrant labor is by far the best for commercial farms, but if this labor situation is being radically changed by the federal government, which appears to be the case nationwide, we need to seek alternatives.