Unpermitted, off-grid, and grateful!

[My 2 cents]

I lived in an unpermitted house for many years. I claimed and received the homeowner's exemption. I was taxed on the value of the house, but the exemption was greater than that value. This did not trigger an inspection or any repercussions. Basically, the Dept. of Taxation and the building dept. are 2 different entities and the right hand doesn't seem to know what the left hand is doing.

So, to the question "Are the unpermiited paying their “fair” share?", the answer is yes, even if that amount is zero.

[dobanion]

A buddy of mine got the same answer from the county.  The kitchen sink (because it could have meat scraps) required a septic tank.  Poor guy was vegan, so it irked him twice as much.

Kind of a cop out answer. Meat scraps? What if you don't ever toss food down the drain? I have a bucket next to the sink that goes into the compost bin when full (or smelly). I also use a screen on the kitchen sink to catch all the little bits, which also goes into the compost.

Not like the bits of food coming out the drain will ever end up in the ground water. It's just silly.

I'll also happily pay the extra tax on the value of any structure, if that didn't also trigger a inspection. After what "My 2 cents" just posted, I'm seriously considering calling the Dept of Taxation and claiming the $10k structure I have on one of my lots.

[Hotzcatz]

Building Dept is directly across the hall from the Property Tax office and the two never share data. Haven't a clue why, but not complaining.

The Property Tax folks are pretty good about finding things to tax and then the County gets the tax $$$. On the other hand, when the Building Department issues a warning and requires someone to either get a permit or tear their construction down, that will require inspectors and other officials making paperwork and such so it will probably actually cost the County more than they make to enforce the Building code. They only charge twice the usual rate for an 'as built' permit verses one that was gotten before it was built. And the cost for the building permit itself is only a couple hundred dollars or so. At least, that's what it used to be. I've not run paperwork lately. However, the reason to get a permit before building is that it then locks in the building code for your structure and you find out before you build it if there will be any problems about meeting code.

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What about taxes? Are the unpermiited paying their “fair” share?

Personally, I don't pay tax* on my "unpermitted" structures, but I also don't benefit from the homeowners exemption. Considering my whole home cost < $20k, I would be happy to pay taxes on it, if it did not trigger an inspection.  Now where's kalakoa to talk about receiving services for his taxes?

* Though I do pay vehicle and gas taxes that don't go to my roads, and income tax that is not fairly distributed to Puna. So ultimately I am probably paying *more* than my fair share.

You can pay property tax on it and the Property Tax folks won't tell the Building Department that it's there.  Ask the Property Tax folks first, if you'd like.  You can ask them all sorts of things as sort of a 'hypothetical' question.  Just don't tell them names or TMKs and then decide what to do after you hear what they say.  We'd be interested to hear what they say, too!

[randomq]

To clarify, I do pay tax on my property, which ends up costing more than if I were taxed on my inexpensive home under the homeowner's exemption. And a bunch of other taxes and fees: vehicle, gas, income, sales, etc...

The new building code updates being proposed by county council would raise the "as built" fee/fine to $1000 plus the usual hundreds. From what I hear the county folks don't want to give poor people a hard time and can usually be stalled, but if they decide to play hardball it could be $1000 a day fines. I don't think fining people thousands or forcing them to live in a tent instead of a cabin is really helping anyone. IMHO inspections should be advisory in all but the most dangerous of circumstances. Your walls aren't insulated: advisory. Small house built on posts instead of concrete sheer walls: advisory. Roof not properly supported and could collapse: you better get someone to help you fix that, I'll be back out to re-inspect. Heck people might actually invite the inspectors out to make sure their home is safe, instead of hiding from them for fear of homelessness and financial ruin.

[dobanion]

I did it. Emailed the tax office appraiser, claimed my "accessory" building, size, construction, and value. Let's see what happens.

Onto the next thing, a real hail mary. I 'm gonna put together a case for a "alternative wastewater system" that includes a composting toilet, and a greywater filter with a pressurized irrigation distribution. See how far I can take this. DOH Wastewater department is gonna get a nice letter.

[kalakoa]

1. When I applied for the homeowner exemption (by mail), the RPT guy took a description of my shack over the phone and assigned a value to it. As I've pointed out before: the person at the counter will give you different answers than the guy who opens the mail. It's almost as if RPT has many people on its staff, and each of them interpret the rules/requirements differently. Such as whether "accessory" requires a permitted "primary" use.

2. If you don't pull permits, RPT will eventually use aerial photos + Pictometry (for which we collectively pay $1M/year license fee) to determine square footage, then they assign a valuation and send a bill. This information is not volunteered to other departments. . RPT will show you the pictures if you ask nicely -- but make it clear you're just curious, or they will threaten to "re-evaluate" your homeowner exemption.

3. No matter how much property tax you pay or what kind of permits you have, you still live here, and you will be taxed on everything else. You could theoretically avoid all the taxation but it would require extensive infrastructure and lots of free time.

4. Chem-Tainer sells septic tanks for money, they don't ask for permits. You can install it yourself or pay a guy (cash). Because septic is below-ground, it can go in the setbacks. The local rule of thumb seems to be "at least 5 feet from the property line". Leach fields are small on the lava. I have a septic system. It works great.

5. Rules aren't based on what *you* are doing *now*, your property must be fully-compliant because someone else might live there later and do different things. Example: vegan lifestyle doesn't "need" a septic system, but maybe that vegan sells the house to a carnivore someday. Much in the way that a cell phone tower might fall over and crush theoretical children playing in a playground that could exist -- but a cell phone tower obviously won't fall over and crush people in the Foodland parking lot, because the laws of zoning override the laws of physics.

It comes down to this: do whatever you want, just don't piss anyone off. Major hassles are just a phone call away. Mostly. I can't get rid of the torched abandoned vehicles, hoping one of the neighbors has a backhoe or something to push them off the side of the road. We all pay the same fees -- in this case, a "roadway beautification" surcharge on my vehicle registrations -- but we don't all get the same services.

[randomq]

Very brave, dobanion. Good luck to you sir.

Kalakoa! I knew we could lure you back.

[My 2 cents]

"If you don't pull permits, RPT will eventually use aerial photos + Pictometry"

I'm pretty sure that I applied for my homeowner's exemption on my unpermitted structure in reaction to being taxed on it, not the other way around. But that was like 35 years ago. Things might be different now. But I have to ask, are you folks sure that your unpermitted structures don't already have a taxable value assigned?

[eightfingers2.0]

Can you get insurance on un permitted houses?

[Obie]

Yes you can get insurance on un-permitted houses.