buildig with permit vs no permit

[dobanion]

I don't think special or "hi-res" aerial is needed to find your unpermitted structure in the first place. Maybe to accurately assess value, but I'd argue a in person or simple drone flyover would be more effective in this regard.

It was made very clear to me recently. The google maps aerial imagery updated in my neighborhood for the first time in....5-6 years. Something like that. Suddenly, every little shack, shanty, cabin, etc I was aware of in the neighborhood appeared. A simple comparison between the new aerial and the tax information was all that was needed to asses the situation down to:

1. Empty lot
2. Permitted
3. Unpermitted, not tax assessed
4. Unpermitted, tax assessed

I actually did something crazy, I TOLD the county I had put up a unpermitted structure as a accessory building, and even gave them a estimate of the value. They happily took my assessment at face value (it WAS truthful, btw), put it down on my tax assessment, and gladly took the extra money. This was a gamble to avoid anyone "coming after me," at least from the tax side. I know I'm still vulnerable from the "permit people" but I think I may end up a bit further down the line as I'm paying taxes (extortion?) on it.

So if the project is build to code and the inpsector is happy, why does it have to be done by a licensed guy?

Agreed, 100%. This requirement always struck me as some sort of preservation of the boys club. Why are they trusting me, the owner builder, to build the walls and the roof over my head, then tell me I can't be trusted to run wires and pipes? Let the owner-builder, build, then assess the result to the code as usual.

Just like in your case on Oahu, classic. You do all the work, then you have to scratch somebody's back because they have the license, THEN the inspector (re)checks it. Many stories I have heard of license holders essentially charging people cash for them to swing by and scribble their signature, sometimes they don't even look at the work they are signing off on. Again, rumors, but I'll safely assume at least a small minority of license holders do this, at least on occasion, and definitely for friends and family.

[tikicarver]

the law does not do what it was supposely made to do.
If they really only wanted a licensed electrcian and plumber to do that work becasue they felt only a professional that has years 
of training could do it,,then  they would not allow Home Depot and Lowes to sell all the parts you need unless you had a license.

I walk down the electrical section in Home Depot and laugh, in Hawaii only electrcains can install all this stuff.
But then I see people that don't know the difference of an outlet and a switch buying alll the stuff. 
Oh ya, they are just buying it for their electrcian, they are not going to install it....

[Punatang]

Electricity = Fire
Plumbing = Water

What industry, with extremely vast lobbying reach, has a stake in how housing is built, and more importantly, how housing gets damaged?

[tikicarver]

"What industry, with extremely vast lobbying reach, has a stake in how housing is built, and more importantly, how housing gets damaged?"

The buidling inpsection dept is suppose to enforce that stuff is built to code.
Why does it matter who built the stuff to the code?
and if the "pros" are so great, how come there are always code violations???

the real asnwer is what you said,, the Unions have the lobby money and the Hawaii politicians in their back pocket.

[Punatang]

Well, I was thinking more of the insurance industry but I'm sure more than one entity has a hand in things.  If it were the unions though, the carpenter union is arguably the most connected in HI.  What if you couldn't even frame a house yourself.  The licensing is the difference there though.  Either way it's frustrating when you know you can produce a better result and are regulated from doing it.

[BlackAkita]

I think the big negative of building an unpermited house would be the re-sale value down the road when I'm dead...  
and like others have said, it will shrink the available buyers because most lenders will not lend on an unpermited house....

I think the biggest danger is in the here and now. Here is the scenario for a current buyer:

1. The house is 30 years or older.
2. Current owner (the seller) has many unpermitted additions, the most glaring of which is a 120 sq ft room he added, which altered the roofline. He did this around 10 years ago, and has not paid taxes on the improvements. What's worse is that the current owner is an out-state resident. Should Dawn Takeuchi Apuna (head of DPP) hear about this, she could subject the owner to fines galore. This is a small island, where rumors spread faster than the Maui wildfire.
3. HPIA will not insure the new buyer, unless that chap submits full blueprints and an as-built plan from an architect, or equivalent. That's close to $10K in costs.
4. HPIA will withdraw coverage if the new buyer is late in supplying the package described in (3) to the DPP. During the time the permit is being reviewed, HPIA may not cover fire damage to the unpermitted addition.
5. Mortgage company can demand payment in full for the loan upon (4).
6. Even if (4) and (5) do not transpire, DPP could require the new owner to get the roof re-sheathed with plywood to meet current code. You might as well replace the galvanized roof at the same time. That could be a $20K cost. Add in money for electricians and plumbers to fix the other undocumented improvements in the home. What is under the kimono is invariably revealed in the whole property blueprint. Right off the top of his head, one architectural firm rep told me the average cost to submit and fulfill an as-built home plan is around $50K.
7. If DPP sees any monkey business with the cesspool, add another $40K to the project for a brand new septic system. I think (in my case) the owner had his cesspool pumped years ago, and the contractor must have damaged the cap, because why else would they push a shed over the area?
8. Here is the final nightmare in the modern day version of Mr. Blandings Build His Dream House (in Puna): Non-Renewal Notice from HPIA.

[Hotzcatz]

I suspect one of the major reasons most folks build unpermitted houses is that they lack the knowledge to get a permitted one built at a reasonable cost. It's a convoluted path to keep it cheap.

At one point (I've not looked for the past few years) there was a certain size of house which could be built without an architect/engineer stamp if it were of a certain size and built via common practices. Single story, less than xxxx square feet (I forget the exact number), roof overhang of 30" or less (standard is 36") and there were some other requirements as well. That would save several thousand on getting the plans stamped.

With a graphics program and a set of existing plans to show the style and layout of a standard set of plans, someone could draw up their own plans. For the permitted but no permit necessary building, it has to be "standard" construction so it would just be moving the standard construction walls into the shapes you want, not redesigning the wall structure itself. The building code is online so you can dive down the rabbit hole of looking up the building code depending on the specific building part in question. Strong coffee is recommended when doing that.

The easy house to build is a rectangular shape in two foot increments. 24' x 28'? Something smallish, that's 672 square feet and fits with in the "efficiency dwelling" category. If you plan on building a bigger house on the lot later, than pare that down to under 600 square feet so it can later have a 'change in use' and go from a 'dwelling' to a 'guest house' so you will then be able to build a new 'dwelling' on the lot. Check with Planning Department to make sure your zoning will allow a guest house. So, anyway, figure 24' x 32' or some size along that line, maybe 28'x36'?. Pour a standard concrete slab, then frame up the walls on the slab and tilt them up into place. Then have pre-manufactured roof trusses delivered to the top of the walls. Add the roof decking, put on tin. Then some electrical and plumbing, a bit of paint and drywall and you should be good to go. There will be loads of Simpson fittings, etc., etc., but a lot of that can be bought from Craig's List or FB Marketplace.

Septic systems are now required, no real getting around that and you'd need it anyway whether it was permitted or unpermitted. I've heard the Building Department is becoming more open minded about composting toilets, but you still need a septic to handle the gray water.

However, you can save plumbing costs by only building one bathroom and one kitchen sink and add in the rest later. Same with the electrical system. Put in a small minimum amount and then expand it later. Electricians and plumbers charge by the size and number of fixtures. Limit those and the costs are lower.

We're in the middle of building a permitted house at the moment but we're not doing it as inexpensively as possible, we're more concerned about durability and costs of living in it. It's quite modest in size and number of rooms, but it's got a huge lanai and a loft big enough to be used. Since it's with an owner-builder permit, we don't have to hire a contractor and that's saving tons right there.

[Olohana 1790]

you mainland kine duped permit kooks are funny.... thanks for the laughs
this is not San Jose CA..
this is unpaved pos pothole road Puna ... all 500 sq miles and 15 traffic lights worth...

if you didnt buy acres of land.... u da faka who fauked up
ie tiny lot mainland invested HPP, postage stamp lot Ainaloa where your catchment, driveway, and house pad takes 50% of your 3 sided neighbour lookylooky rubbish land...

***in HA
just put a gate up and a few Kapu signs and like one said..... keep 1 puka out back open if karen shows while you shooting 1 puaa
arohahaha

[tikicarver]

I'm going to be building a house and taking the same route as you. Owner builder doing as much myself as I can....

Just wondering if you have approx cost for hiring a plumber to do the work for a modest house with just one bathroom and one kitchen sink?

Someone suggested to me just find a plumber that will let you do the work and he signs your permit for a fee.
anyone been succesful in doing that?  basically you would be like the plumbers labor guy, he just comes by once in a while to inspect your work. Easy money for him...


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However, you can save plumbing costs by only building one bathroom and one kitchen sink and add in the rest later.  Same with the electrical system.  Put in a small minimum amount and then expand it later.  Electricians and plumbers charge by the size and number of fixtures.  Limit those and the costs are lower.

We're in the middle of building a permitted house at the moment but we're not doing it as inexpensively as possible, we're more concerned about durability and costs of living in it.  It's quite modest in size and number of rooms, but it's got a huge lanai and a loft big enough to be used.  Since it's with an owner-builder permit, we don't have to hire a contractor and that's saving tons right there.