Cave relics

[Momi]

I think "foreigner" is much better then "disrespectful people" though thanks haole girl. I think I would have gotten far more bad remarks for calling everyone disrespectful people and would have had a worse conotation placed on me as a "Hawaiian" for using a negative word.

Kula `iwi. `Iwi is the Hawaiian word for bones. I guess this would be referring to the land where our kupuna (ancestors) bones where laid. Is that what you mean Mamo? K, now you made me look home up in the dictionary. There is a word for it but it is a later english/hawaiian mixed word and pronounced (ho-may). Very interesting how you intertwined kula`iwi with the cave relic thread. Mahalo for that kaona.


I had no idea that nene were on the menu at Volcano house. For the most part, I believe the mongoose ultimately brought down the population though. It is currently keeping the numbers down now. I wonder how long it took volcano house to figure out it was endangered. Interesting trivia.


Edited by - momi on 03/08/2007 12:23:32

[Haole Girl]

quote:

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Oh no keith, certainly not. Like everything else in life, it's just coincidence.

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E mamo

I'm not sure about that and yes I do know you were being sarcastic you Molokaiian you

Though it's only a theory look at what happened to Patrick Hanifin and to this latest person John Carta.

They were cursed.

By the way I am a college graduate "yet" I still believe in the energy of our kupuna. That's why I would have added:

"Be careful or else you may get cursed!"

Molokai pule oo is an example *LOL*


E Momi,

Yeah... I knew what you meant but it seems that many people who don't understand the manao of oiwi/kanaka/Hawaiians they would misinterpret it that way. That's why I would have stated it a different way. Even then I doubt it would have helped. Unfortunately there is a language barrier for some like the other person who took it personally. Why take it personally? Unless one is guilty. Then I can understand why s/he responded that way. With guilt.

Anyway I still agree with your warning about the caves.



Edited by - Haole Girl on 03/08/2007 12:29:37

[bystander]

quote:

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Fossil records show that the Hawaiian Goose used to live on all the main Hawaiian Islands. It is believed that they were abundant (about 25,000 birds) on the Big Island before the arrival of Captain James Cook in 1778. Today, the Big Island is the only place where they are found naturally in the wild. Scientists believe that the Maui population became extinct before 1890. The decline in numbers was accelerated during the period of 1850 to 1900 due to aggressive hunting of the birds and collecting of their eggs. In 1951, the Nene population was estimated at only 30 birds.

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http://www.birdinghawaii.co.uk/XNene2.htm

Gee I wonder what happened to the Nene on Maui and the other islands.

[Haole Girl]

quote:

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They sold the nene goose to the tourist to eat. Nene goose was once on the menu at the volcano house. There was money to made so they hunted the birds. Before guns these birds were hard to catch. Have I expounded enough for you?

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Any evidence?

[bystander]

Evidence that Nene was on the volcano house menu? I don't have a copy of the menu but this is what I heard. Why is this so hard for people to accept? Goose of any kind was considered a good eating bird back then. The Nene is actually almost identical to the Canada goose and people are still eating them.

quote:

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Many factors have contributed to the decline of the nene. The first humans to Hawaii exploited nene for food, destroyed lowland habitat and introduced the first mammalian predators such as Polynesian rats, pigs and dogs. The exploitation of the bird for food, by Hawaiians and non-Polynesian settlers, is believed to have been responsible for substantial population declines in lowland areas. Hunting was a major limiting factor until a hunting ban was passed and enforced in 1907.

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http://www.piiholo.com/News.NRTMAPR.htm



Edited by - bystander on 03/08/2007 12:43:33

[Haole Girl]

quote:

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Evidence that Nene was on the volcano house menu? I don't have a copy of the menu but this is what I heard. Why is this so hard for people to accept? Goose of any kind was considered a good eating bird back then.

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Yes that and any evidence to support these statements of yours:

"The nene goose was almost wiped out because the Hawaiians suddenly had guns to shoot them with. They sold the birds to tourists for profit. The sandal wood forests were cleared also for profit. For a people who knew nothing of capitalism, they sure learned quickly."

Any evidence of Hawaiians shooting them and selling them?

If so... to whom?





Edited by - Haole Girl on 03/08/2007 12:45:54

Your link still does not have evidence. I am talking about evidence like this

Forbes Documents which I've uploaded Online for all to see:

http://www.missalohahawaii.com/ForbesDocuments.pdf


That site that you posted is a commercial one and is a subjective one with no evidence of their assertions.

http://www.piiholo.com/about.htm

I am referring to proof.

Got proof?





Edited by - Haole Girl on 03/08/2007 12:51:53

[bystander]

quote:

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I had no idea that nene were on the menu at Volcano house. For the most part, I believe the mongoose ultimately brought down the population though. It is currently keeping the numbers down now. I wonder how long it took volcano house to figure out it was endangered. Interesting trivia.

---

Mongoose predation did play a role in the Nene's demise but that's not the whole story. As in the quote I posted, Nene used to range across the Hawaiian islands. They were extinct on Kaui by the time of contact. Kaui never had any mongooses. Today the Nene has been accidently reintroduced to the wild on Kaui and they are flourishing because of the lack of mongooses. Why did they go extinct on Kauai if there were no mongooses and why are they doing so well there today?

quote:

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Nene became wild on Kaua'i in 1982 after Hurricane Iwa destroyed the cages of captive nene on the southeast side of the island. These birds rapidly adapted to the mongoose-free, lowland, grassy habitat. Because these birds were so successful, State biologists recently have introduced Nene on the north and northwest coasts of Kaua'i.

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[bystander]

quote:

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Yes that and any evidence to support these statements of yours:

"The nene goose was almost wiped out because the Hawaiians suddenly had guns to shoot them with. They sold the birds to tourists for profit. The sandal wood forests were cleared also for profit. For a people who knew nothing of capitalism, they sure learned quickly."

Any evidence of Hawaiians shooting them and selling them?

If so... to whom?

---

The case of the devastation to the sandalwood trees is well known. Momi expounded on it although I don't agree with the explaination she gave. Don't tell me you don't believe this happened?

As for the Nene hunting, I can try and dig up some evidence to please you. I think I find some.

[Momi]

Why don't you clarify what happened with the sandalwood. The sandalwood industry started with Kamehameha and lasted till Kamehameha III this was several years of harvesting through the death of two kings the last one being a teenager when he entered into kingship. He still had to deal with the sandalwood industry. It wasn't like they had alot of experience from the time of their father with money so I find your statement false that they new how to deal with the money, I think they were definitly experimenting with it. Money was just coming into the scene at the time of Kamehameha I or when Captain Cook arrived before that, the economical system was based on the barter system of goods. After Cook's arrival, it took a few years before money was of value in Hawaii. So enlighten us if you think you can.





Edited by - momi on 03/08/2007 15:33:32

[oink]

I also have not cared for much of the tone in this thread. I have avoided responding to it because of the tone. Oddly, I agree with most of what has been said, from all perspectives. I think many of the arguments would be much more persuasive if made in a softer tone. My own heritage, education, and personal history gives me a diverse perspective. I would be considered very liberal by some in some of my concepts and racist by some in other concepts. If I were in Momi's shoes (Please note that I can wander off anywhere in this stream of consciousness. For instance, I realize I don't really know poop about Momi and I'm making assumptions and generalizations, probably incorrect ones) or those of her heritage, I'm sure I would think much as she does. From that perspective I agree with everything she and Mamoahina have said. On the other hand, I studied anthropology and sociology in college (lacking drive and gray matter I settled for a B.A.) and I have continued to keep up with archeology and history as a hobby. From that perspective I agree totally with bystander. World history has constantly involved waves of peoples and cultures moving and flowing, usually at the expense of others. Hawaii has been unique, due to it's isolation, that until recently it witnessed so few of those waves of peoples. This has always been the history (and prehistory) of our world. What happened in the American continents was unique in that peoples attitudes had evolved (improved) so that there was some dissent and guilt for what was happening to the indigenous Americans. Obviously not enough dissent and guilt to strongly influence the outcome. Hawaii is an even more recent example of this, but again, the evolvement of the public mentality was sadly, largely, too late. What solutions or remedies are within the realm of reality? I don't know. I do believe Hawaiian culture and language should be preserved. I think most (maybe not all) cultures are worth preserving. I think the the “californication” (New word. Note the last half of it.) of Hawaii is very regrettable. I wish it could be stopped, but given our laws and courts I don't see how it could be done. (Hawaii Monarchy resurrected? I don't see it ever happening. Thats not an opinion of the ideas validity) I know that I'm a successive mixture of people that have been overwhelmed by others going back into the dawn of humanity. I'm more Scotch than anything else. The Scotch were oppressed by the hated English, with many being driven into marginal substance. That is probably why my Scotch ancestors came to America where they probably exploited the Native Americans, and where my Scotch mother met and married a descendant of the hated English. I could get into the Celts, Normans Norsemen, etc. That's without getting into the movements in Europe before anyone got to the British Isles. I'm now a native Floridian. If only we could keep the damn Yankees out.

I hope that didn't bore anyone too much. I'm sure someone will find a way to be offended. Just remember, It any given moment I just may agree with you and be on your side.

I'm sorry that you have to provide your own paragraph breaks to the above ramble.

PS It took me so long to write that pile of crap I got two pages behind in the posts!

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.