Appliances in Nanawale

[sansei]

One caveat. On demand tankless hot water heater require a lot of gas while it is running. A gas line for a tank type water heater may be too small for a high flow tankless WH. The specs for the WH will tell you the minimum pipe sizing and run length.

[Les C]

Yeah, we had to make sure that the line was large enough for our on-demand (tankless) water heater, which it was... 1/2"? You might say that the installation was a tankless job, even though we profusely expressed our gratitude.

[morganlady]

Yes, in Michigan, we call propane tanks "pigs" - I've seen one painted pink with a curly tail!
Mahalo for all the responses - I don't want to depend solely on electric for cooking or anything - too many power outages lately! The gas powered instant water heater sounds good, and maybe I'll add a gas grill in the sideyard, too (under the carport)!

[Les C]

I'm not sure if any of the tankless/on-demand water heaters will function without electrical power. It's needed for the thermostat and heat control. And aside from that, your pressure pump will need power to pressurize your house plumbing.

If functionality during a power outage is a large concern, then solar water heating and/or photovoltaic power should be considered. If you can arrange for an elevated holding tank, filled by a windmill, perhaps, and use gravity for pressure, you could be clear of some of the inconveniences of a power outage. Otherwise, a generator is another possibility.

[Hotzcatz]

No electricity necessary. Ours runs on a 1/2" gas line and no electricity at all. It does great!

[leilaniguy]

I have an Aquastar tankless heater, prevoiusly had a Paloma, neither had any electronic componants, (just light with a match) and piped in water doesn't require a pump.

[Hotzcatz]

We got one of those new tankless water heaters from Sauces and Propane in Honokaa. I think it is a Tagaki, although to be certain of the name, I'd have to go look. Sauces & Propane is down the road next to the post office at the far end of town, should you want a water heater or high efficiency refrigerator from them. Their establishment looks a bit messy, but they do have really good appliances since they also supply a lot of folks off the grid who are really interested in the efficiency of all appliances.

The water heater doesn't have a pilot light, it has a small propeller activated piezo electric device that lights the gas when water goes through the pipe. The water heater also mounts directly on a wall outside with no vent stack necessary. It is a much more sensitive water heater than the Paloma was, it will start and heat water for even small amounts of requested hot water. The Paloma didn't start unless a lot of hot water was demanded.

We've also gotten a Consul refrigerator from Sauces & Propane. It is a really efficient full sized electric refrigerator and we are able to run it on our solar power system. We are planning on getting a wind generator next.

[David M]

Tagaki makes a great product - we have the TK Jr.

I also have a 12 volt Marine Airx wind generator with 30 ft mast I will be taking out of service late summer/early fall and it will be for sale. Reason - once new house is complete I intend to consolidate my solar systems to 1 location to power everything. The house system is 48 volt.

David

Ninole Resident

[Les C]

The brand name is Takagi (that's "ta-ka-gee", not "ta-ka-jee", remember Mr. Miyagi in "Karate Kid"?)

So, I've learned some stuff that weeks of Internet research and talking to, supposedly, knowledgeable people didn't reveal. To sum up from this thread, it sounds like (and correct me if I'm wrong) Takagi, AquaStar (Bosch) and Paloma don't require electricity to function. Rinnai does need to be plugged in. Takagi and Rinnai use piezoelectric starters; AquaStar and Paloma have a constantly burning pilot, the kind you light manually. I would think that this is the case only on the older models. Newer models should be using the fuel saving piezoelectric starters. I've heard of the impeller/propeller-driven piezoelectric starter; it's a great idea.

It sounds like Takagi has what might be called a low-flow activation: it'll turn on and heat water at low water demand. Paloma and Rinnai seem to require higher demand to start heating. How does AquaStar rate in this respect?

The Rinnai seems to have a pump in it, we hear it humming when it's running. At first, this bothered me, but it lets me know that it's working before the hot water shows up. Initially, the noise WAS bothersome because the unit was having a problem and the loudness and erraticness of the humming was very bothersome. With a correctly functioning unit, the sound is very minimal. It could be lessened even more by mounting with sound dampening material between the unit and the wall. Sound output was not a spec that was very obvious when researching these heaters. Maybe only the Rinnai has an internal pump?

One thing I can do to reduce heat loss in our hot water "circuit", and thereby saving some propane, is to insulate the hot water pipes. This should also improve hot water delivery time. Delivery time is not a problem, by the way, it's just a small possible benefit.

Another reputable brand that I've come across is Toyotomi. I don't know if anyone carries it in the State. By the way, on-demand heaters have a long track record in Europe and Japan; the US has apparently been slow to buy into this technology.

When purchasing an on-demand water heater, and maybe any appliance, it may be important to you that the company selling it is a licensed/certified dealer. For an on-demand water heater, I would recommend buying one of the name brands mentioned from an authorized dealer. If you're a very capable person, have the time to invest, and would like to save as many dollars as possible, this may not matter. However, I have talked to someone who bought an on-demand water heater that was relatively inexpensive (not one of the name brands) from a store that wasn't a dealer (J&J something). When the unit had problems, they got little help from the store. These people have a lot of plumbing expertise but were not able to get it to work right. It was a waste of their time and money; it's now a wall decoration. You usually have more recourse from an authorized dealer.

In regard to functionality of an on-demand water heater with a catchment system during a power outage, even if you have a Takagi, or other unit that doesn't need electricity to function, I would think that if your water system doesn't have pressure, water won't be pushed to your on-demand heater, and you won't get hot water delivered to your points of use. You can accommodate for this scenario if your tank level is high enough (water level in tank or the actual tank elevation) which would use gravity to supply pressure, or if you have an alternate form of electrical power (generator, photovoltaic, wind).

If you're on county water, you should have pressure during a power outage. This does beg a question, how is county water pressurized? Is it all on gravity feed to homes from those large tanks off to the side of many roadways? On another related thought, is county water a large fossil fuel consumer via electricity use to pump water into those tanks? Does county water come from wells, and/or do they use some "spring water" (which is water that flows out of the ground on its own)?

Something to ask about when buying gas/propane stoves as it concerns power outages: We have a GE stove/oven that's could be as "new" as 3 years-old or as much as 15. During a power outage, the piezoelectric starter doesn't fire but the stove top still puts out propane, so you can still light it with a match. The oven uses a pilot light with a safety valve. It's kind of a two-stage pilot light set up. In a power outage, the piezoeletric starter doesn't fire, the pilot never gets lit, and the safety switch doesn't get heated, so the propane stays shut off. I don't know if this can be over-ridden by manually lighting the pilot; I'm not sure if there's any propane getting to the pilot. Since it's a long reach to the back of the underside of the oven to manually light the pilot, I'm not keen on trying that. I'd just as soon not use the oven during an outage. I don't know if this how it works in new propane stove/ovens, but you should ask.

[sansei]

Les,
You covered a lot of ground so it took me a while to noodle a response. Manufacturer's WWW sites are a great place to educate yourself and I have collected these site URLs.
Rinnai: http://www.foreverhotwater.com/
Aquastar(Bosch): http://www.aquastar.com/
Paloma: http://www.palomawaterheaters.com/
Noritz: http://www.noritz.com/
Rheem: http://rheemtankless.com/
Takagi: http://www.takagi.com/

Noritz claims to be #1 on their WWW site though I only heard of them a few weeks ago. I don't know if they have a retailer in HI, but there is a distributor listed on Oahu. A comparison chart of some of the models can be found here: http://www.tanklesswater.com/ed_mfgcomparisons.asp?&utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=ppc&utm_term=aquastar%20bosch%20heater%20water&OVRAW=rinnai&OVKEY=rinnai&OVMTC=standard&OVADID=3400825021&OVKWID=33818723021

Toyotomi is most well known for their Kerosene space heaters with their Kero Sun brand. It seems they also make a Kerosene or Fuel Oil burning water heater. Don't know about the economics but kerosene is safer and easier to transport. Interesting alternative.
http://www.toyotomiusa.com/



Edited by - sansei on 06/11/2007 11:36:48