quote:
In the mean time, it's police action and filing charges against them at every offense, and no more mister nice guy..
OK, Jeff, but be careful and when you deal with the police pay attention as to their tone and body language. Are they on your side for real? Same with inspectors and building.
I've had experience with trying to deal with NFH through the official channels, and a psycho neighbor who is convincing can turn the whole thing around into YOU harassing them, especially with one other neighbor joining in. "Abuse of process" (IIRC the name) is a tort, similar to malicious prosecution, one for using agencies and the other for using the police.
Yes, I realize that THEY have been committing these torts against you, but understand that if it comes to a lawsuit the officials will testify, subjectively, as to their perception of who is harassing whom -- and they may just side against the newcomer, or the one who is more aggressively asking them to get off their okole and do something, rather than with who is right.
Who is right typically has little to do with anything unless you can find an official who really gets it.
As for an attorney, I would find someone respected in real estate law and instead of asking for anyone to take your case on contingency, I would negotiate a sum for writing a few letters that will lay it on the line. Steering clear of the "malice" angle and sticking to property rights and the damages for trespass, destroying property and perhaps going with a "nuisance" angle as they interfering with your right to enjoy your property.
Yes, it will cost some money, but if you stick with an hourly rate you can control the costs.
I would also contact the local mediation center and ask them to contact your neighbors to see if they are interested in mediation. As a bully, I doubt she would enjoy the process; however, the fact that she declined to mediate and you offered to do so makes you look like the reasonable neighbor.
Re the attorney's letters, very few people can receive a serious letter from an attorney suggesting they are about to be sued without some trepidation, few have the training to reply without going to seek legal counsel, and that costs them money. A lot of money they have no desire to spend.
Loss of job, etc., that serves to enrage them and inflame the situation so that they will not rest until they retaliate, if they are the types you describe. Because they will feel righteous and victimized in their twisted reality.
However, if they are put in a situation where they have to pay a lawyer, and you ratchet down the personal interaction and focus on property rights, they may just come to the conclusion it is not worth it to keep fighting you.
By the way, if you did sue them for causes of action that are not covered by homeowners' insurance, they would have to bear the costs themselves. If you go the other way and bring in insurers, you will be giving them free legal counsel ... also some money for settlement would enter the picture. Your choice of strategy, but think it out carefully. In any case, their insurance will not defend them until and unless an actual lawsuit is filed, so try chipping away at their pocketbook with letters, letters that quote case law ...
Disclaimer: not an attorney, discuss any legal strategy with an attorney. This is based on my experience though.
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dear jeff!
i do not have the time to read all 6 pages of posts but i think i get the point. I have some more philosophic advice for you, which you can take or leave. Anytime life puts such an obstacle in front of you, you should consider that it could be for your benefit. Like you can't find your car keys get delayed twenty minutes and just miss being in a car accident. You should contemplate the reward of living somewhere that is more positive, easy flowing, and healthy. It should far exceed your monetary investment. Those people already live a pathetic existence filled with suffering, anger, and DIS-ease. aloha
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Dear Jeff,
Kathy says she's not an attorney but as one myself I can tell you she's giving you excellent advice.
1. Do not engage with these people again unless you have an impartial witness or a recorder
2. If you could set up a couple of surveillance cameras to cover your boundaries it would be good
3. Pursue the property law - You can get a court order (civil, not criminal) preventing these people from trespassing (and spraying your plants over the wall is trespassing - they don't have to actually walk on your property), and you may also get damages for the loss of your tree. I can't remember - didn't they admit cutting it down? There may be other damages as well for the harassment, though this is difficult to prove. Are you out of pocket over this?
Finally, even though I understand that this kind of thing drives you nutz, your posting sounds like you're a little too engaged with these bozos. To prevail at court, you have to have "clean hands" - you have to come across as very very reasonable, a complete innocent who is being wronged by bad people.
Unfortunately, if there's a whiff of fighting back - threatening somebody's job, for instance - it's potentially damaging to your case.
And remember, do you really want to live with these people? Because that's what close neighbors are - they're folks you live with. Maybe you should sell, and if there's a loss add it to your damages.
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Jeff, I think the last portion of Buzzy's post is the most important. This can be about winning or it can be about quality of life. It will never be about both. What is most inportant to you? Winning seems to come to the forefront of your issues. Rethink that. You and your wife deserve to enjoy Hawaii and LIFE. Sell your place, buy something else and get on with it Jeff. Enjoy your life. You and the MRS deserve that.  Pam
Just another day in P A R A D I S E !!
I want to be the kind of woman that, when my feet
hit the floor each morning, the devil says
"Oh Crap, She's up!"
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Jeff, cut your loses, Amigo. Much of the happiness in this paradise experience is the friendly exchange between respectful and caring neighbors.
I was a State Ombudsman for many years in Oregon. Alternantive dispute resolution is a wonderful and powerful thing, but it only works if both parties want resolution. These people do not want resolution. They've misguided themselves into feeling wronged, and you're never going to change that. They're enjoying this; it gives them something to wrap their tiny minds around.
Lawyers are necessary but expensive. Win a legal battle here and wait for the next round. Nothing to look forward to.
If you try to build, even to flip the house, they'll sabotage the job and/or steal your materials, or have someone else do it.
Your only other alternative, other than to burn their houses down, is to flat ass catch them doing something illegal and outrageous against you or yours. Who needs that?
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Yes, thank you for your good considerations/advise...
It's not such a easy task to, just cut our losses. Buzzy, yup, we'd be out of pocket over 50k to 'cut our losses' if we could sell it for 50K, . Realtors advise me, it has this value now, especially now that we have a water meter/service, 50k. However, disclosure of the neighbors harassment will cause further value offset.. We continue to search for an attorney who will take this on, but only get delays by their secretaries who speak of compassion about our affair, whom their boss turns us down, without hearing our voice.
Living in Hawaii, the big island, is a dream of mine, desire, which the seeds were planted in my mind over 45 years ago, as I browsed threw brochures of land sale offers at only 5-7 years old. ..
I've been a poorboy nearly all of my life. And when I began to enable myself, earn a decent living, provide for my wife and children, Chronic Rheumatoid arthritis began to strike me down. So, me learned to use me brain verses me brawn.. Which is how we've managed to accomplish todays successes. living next to creeps like this is nothing new to me, not at all.. I am a very good person, deep inside and illustrate this to people, creeps.. It's been my experience that when creeps learn you don't cheat, lie, steal, don't play by their rules they began to understand they can't hurt you.. It takes a lot of time, Patience, TEACHING them the real rules of the law, verses their ignorant or bully behavior, understandings, (threats of civil action, bodily harm, trespass, property damage, against us etc.). And Buzz, Cathy, yes although the last time we filed harassment charges against them, now two, they, she, the south neighbor lady, did try and convince the police that I'd attempted to threaten them with a TRO. After I explained the truth of it all, the police were compassionate about the occurrence and willingly filed charges against her for; attempting to use the police to further harass us.. It will be though, in criminal court, Petty misdemeanor, 'he said, she said'..
Cutting our losses will mean, we will not be able to live in Hawaii.. It is that simple..
Edited by - Jeffhale on 08/10/2007 07:50:26
Jeff, I was in a somewhat similar situation on the mainland and I do sympathize. Our retirement in Hawai'i was at stake as well if we left them drag our property value down.
I don't think you have to disclose personal animosity from neighbors. Despite your belief that they are jerks, all you know is they have been jerks to you and for all you know they could get along with some future neighbor.
I really don't think they will let you be happy there at this point. It's just a question of when you accept that, before, during, or after your building process. Perhaps you have the option to improve your property, let their animosity fall on you for the changes, and sell it to a buyer who will not be incurring their wrath by changing everything.
There are many happy places to live on the island.
ETA that your obligation to disclose should be discussed with your realtor. I'm just saying, don't assume that you need to give a blow by blow history to be an ethical seller, find out.
Edited by - KathyH on 08/10/2007 09:34:28
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Jeff, would you be happy somewhere else on the big island? If so, why not just trade your lot for somewhere else, for same amount you have into yours? I agree with Kathy, the chances of being able to have a good neighbor relations with them is very doubtful...or maybe in a number of years it may be possible....is it worth that to you? Why not talk to a realtor about it? Talk to some builders about an exchange...they would just build a house to sale and have no emotions involved at all. The next people may have no problem at all with them but you can't worry about that, really. See to you and your wifes welfare.
Edited by - Nancy Fryhover on 08/10/2007 09:47:28
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OK, then I suggest a big, no make that giant, show of support. When next will you be on the Island and at your lot? Have a party - campfire style - potluck. Imagine what your rude neighbors would think if three or four dozen of your closest friends showed up to say hello, and check out your new neighborhood. Nothing loud or obnoxious enough to get in trouble with the police, just a fun gathering. Would it make them crazy, or would it say to them, "hey, these guys have friends here, maybe we should back off"?
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That is a good idea......
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