Speaking of frogs...

[JWFITZ]

A question I'd like answered by someone--and one I find often dodged is this:

How long must a given species exist in a particular place before "experts" arbitrarily feel intitled to declare it native?

I mean, certainly, NOTHING is native to the Hawaiian Islands at some point in history, and everything that lives there is a recent immigrant in geologic terms. That doesn't mean that the ecosystem isn't very health, pure, and pristine--but it's clear to me that species come and species go in every ecosystem. Ecosystems are not static, but living growing adapting units.

Believe me, I'm a advocate for ecology, but as for the frog issue--it seems purely to be a noise nuisance level issue that some people put a green wash on with the attempt to get state aid in improving the "quality" of their property.

[Kelena]

Nah, the Hawaiian Islands are (or were) an ecosystem like none other in the world because of the vast oceans between it and the nearest land. Hawai'i is as close to paradise as we have found on earth.
It was an Eden, and you can still see the traces of it pretty clearly.

We are beginning to learn that it may not be best to let every decision be guided by commerce. The Superferry presents us with that conundrum: convenience, commerce and fun vs. preserving what was special about the islands in the first place.

Some introuductions, such as the hibiscus and the ukulele add to the spirit of the island. Others detract from it. The coqui is a bad fit in paradise and we have a responsibility to our brothers and sisters on the other islands to avoid introducing it.

An attempt to eradicate the coqui is about just one thing, really: Getting a good night's sleep to the sound of the rain, the wind, the waves and the rustling of palms.

[missydog1]

Thanks HPP Person, that's what I had read but couldn't remember where. ;-)

Setting aside the question of how far back a species must go to be called native -- can't we agree that it's a bad thing for our ecostystem when we have species that reproduce very quickly and have no natural predators?

These islands have limited land size, thus the food sources are finite. All these coqui frogs eat, and before they got here, other species were relying on that food. And on through the chain. How could the onset of millions of frogs not upset the balance?

Re the effect of not being bothered by the frogs:
I watched our Hilo property become coqui'd when it was entirely preventable if all the immediate neighbors were of the mindset that the invasion needed to be stopped.

At first there was one frog in our giant hala. We spent hours and hours getting that frog. And we had quiet again.

But when a frog came and sat in the bananas on the other side of the property line, that neighbor didn't care AND wouldn't let us deal with it. Two out of three of the neighbors said it was useless to fight the frogs and the noise didn't really bother them. They let so many frogs invade their property that we constantly had frogs hopping onto ours and when they finally got to the 30 foot high trees and sat at the top, with a monstera jungle underneath to protect them by day -- not much we could do if we didn't want to tear up our beautiful landscaping.

It was sad. The whole attitude that the `aina is just a series of discrete yards rather than a unity to protect. by the way, these neighbors were hardly malihini, and their families had lived in those houses since the 1930's.

They just dealt with the change by turning up their TV's louder.

Before we could begin to reclaim the island from frogs, in the more densely populated areas, we would need some sort of ordinance that requires everyone to at least report infestations or be cited for harboring a nuisance, and after that to allow control measures -- yeah, I can't see that happening.

Nor do I think it would work out well to have the County invading everyone's property -- I'm just saying there won't be a coqui eradication unless everyone gets involved and decides that it matters.

[JWFITZ]

Ah, but the frogs do have predator; it's a the very invasive species homo sapiens, which does no long have any population control in the wild, other than perhaps the frogs themselves, which apparently annoy some of the humans enough that they stay away.

[Les C]

quote:

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A question I'd like answered by someone--and one I find often dodged is this:

How long must a given species exist in a particular place before "experts" arbitrarily feel intitled to declare it native?

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I'll take a stab at this, mostly from the bird perspective. "Native" is applied to organisms that arrived on their own, i.e., no human assistance, usually before human-recorded history. A side classification is "endemic", which means that an organism occurs nowhere else in the world. "Indigenous" is applied to organisms that were introduced by, usually, original people and become established; these organisms can occur elsewhere. "Introduced" is typically used to refer to organisms that are purposefully brought here to be released/planted. "Accidental introduction" is what applies to the Coqui Frog, mosquitoes, and rats; they were unintentionally brought here. Mongoose and Bufo marinus [Cane toad] were intentionally introduced.

The designation "native" is not arbitrary, but one can try to make it so by argument.

As for human beings, I don't know how anthropologists (population biologists, or whomever has that purview) use the categorizations. This may be determined by whomever "wins" and gets to write the history. The Polynesians arrived on their own, making intentional and unintentional introductions (Ti plants, Polynesian Pigs, Polynesian Rats). Explorer/colonialists and whalers came on their own paving the way for missionaries, mosquitoes, and Black and Brown rats.

Organisms get to isolated islands by air (bird flight, "ballooning spiders", wind-borne seeds) and sea (floating here with salt-tolerant systems or salt-proof coverings). Over time, ancestral birds and plants evolve and speciate into different, unique forms. Evolutionary change has been documented (yes, it's not a theory) to occur in less than 25 years in birds. (This doesn't refer to speciation, but the changes that lead to speciation.)

For birds, it's fairly clearcut between what's native and what isn't. The Coqui is not and will never be considered native, even if it becomes established. (Even if it seems obvious to you that they're established because of their numbers and breeding success, they could easily disappear in a relatively short time, owing to some unknown biological limitation.)

Designating something "native" may only be important if one is trying to establish government policy or affect popular opinion. However, it's worth consideration when realizing what makes Hawai'i the place that it is. Island biogeographies are particularly sensitive to changes in the flora and fauna. Endemic organisms steadily disappear making these Islands less what they were with each change.

In regard to the Coqui, the major problem may only be the sound disturbance felt by some. It's been opined, but I haven't seen studies demonstrating that they may have a significant impact on native insects. Thinking about all of the other impacts present on native ecosystems, there are far more serious impacts to deal with than these frogs.

Edited by - les c on 10/21/2007 12:37:52

[JWFITZ]

Thanks, that's thoughtful and well measured.

Sounds to me, all things being equal, that if coqui frogs lessen the impact of human beings, or at least that if many people won't build or develop where the frogs are established, that in a very direct and measurable way they're wholly good for the environment.

[wjbillock]

quote:

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Sounds to me, all things being equal, that if coqui frogs lessen the impact of human beings, or at least that if many people won't build or develop where the frogs are established, that in a very direct and measurable way they're wholly good for the environment.

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I never looked at it that way! Anyone selling coqui's today?

"What? Me Worry?" - Alfred E. Nueman

[haoleboy]

quote:

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In the mean time, start spreading the rumor that coqui frog pate is an incredible libido booster.

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Any chance that this frog pate will offer relief from male pattern baldnes and/or excessive flattulence? Please e-mail info to sexmachine@aol.net

Aloha
Richwhiteboy

"For lack of a better term, they've labelled me a sex symbol. It's flattering and it should happen to every bald, overweight guy."- Dennis Franz

[JustForNow]

I was watching bees going from flower to flower collecting pollen and thought how near perfection it was...then I thought about the reports that something was killing them off, mites,pesticides,disease.
The world frogs are being killed off by disease, pollution,habitat destruction ect.
The alarmist can be called "chicken little"
especially if an articulate person is doing the commenting. If you wait for proof of the coqui doing damage to the islands species and lands it maybe to late. I have studied them for quite awhile now and have seen what/how they eat, 2-3 bugs each a day.
When the frogs hit exponential number growth
they literally spill over into wherever they want carried by sheer population pressure(or cars,boxes ect.)and the current methods don't address the female with eggs.
If you want to learn more come to Wailoa State Park on Nov.23 the large pavilion.."The First Semi-Annual Unofficial Coqui Frog Festival" celebrating the trading and sharing of information. I hope people with all opinions come to this, there will be demo's ect.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Rumi in Hawaii]

Aren't amphibians sometimes called the canary in the coal mine? Interestingly enough, I have noticed a distinct lessening of the coqui noises for the past few nights, since we had an extremely voggy day up here in Mountain View....maybe their little lungs exploded from the vog? (Sorry, that was sick....) I don't mind the coqui noises myself, and yes, I think that if the coqui reduces the humanoid population on this island (due to media fear-mongering and the resultant impact on real estate sales), that is not so bad. I do believe the coqui may impact native insect and therefore native bird populations, but as others have pointed out, the world is still evolving, making changes, and some of those are pretty much beyond our control. I am not sure how we can eradicate the coqui from the Big Island at this point in time, especially without possibly creating even more problems (spraying lime is *good* for living creatures???). I think we are witnessing Life In Progress, and unfortunately, or fortunately, we have no control over how the story ends here. I do love the concept of coqui pate, tho...

Wherever you go, there you are.