Question for someone w/ general knowledge

[Les C]

quote:

---

You can also buy this small " circuit tester" from home depot for like $10. You plug the tester into the outlet and it lights up to tell you if the box is wired correctly or another light comes on telling you the problem.

---

That's for checking an outlet, not a switch. I do as much of my own electrical work as I can, but I know when to stop, because it's too risky without the right knowledge set.

Edited by - Les C on 12/17/2007 15:26:30

[HADave]

quote:

---

Oh geez... your making this much more complicated then I was hoping for.

Just so you know... I'm not working on it w/ the power on. I keep turning the master power off in between.

But after reading what you just posted. I'm pau for now.

I was really hoping you would say...."Oh no need to ground da buggah"

Oh well... lesson learned.

Somewhere on this message board there is a link to what we should teach kids.... I guess I never learned the basics.

-----------------
Coming home soon!

---

Damon, see if this helps you understand first the nuetral ( white wire ) is essentially the return path (or ground) to complete a single phase circut so an electrical device can work. So to answer your basic question You don't need da bugga......however More technically speaking.....As Code required...the neutral and ground at the main panel or disconnect are one and the same..and this holds true of older installations as well as NEW ones. If you do not see this bonding in newer homes...it tells one of two things have transpired....either the home has the main breaker out at the meter (or in a separate main disconnect inside)...and therefore now requires that a 4 wire be brought in (having the ground and neutral isolated from each other at the panel as Code required) or you are looking at a sub-panel...separate from the main panel...where the ground and neutral must also be kept separate. As you know, the neutral is the primary return path for any single phase circuit....and the ground is a safety return path in the event of a fault....to help eliminate the potential for shock from any metal casing in the event of an internal short (the neutral will NOT provide this protection...so hence the need for the extra ground path). At the main panel....the service neutral, the outside ground rod (and any internal water pipe or supplemental ground) are all technically one and the same wire and point...but that is where it ends. Once you leave the main panel...on any grounded system...this extra added ground wire now serves a totally new purpose....and because it is now isolated from the neutral from that point on - it adds the extra degree of protection that the neutral can not. It is picking up any "bleed" to metal on all your appliances (the frame of your light fixtures or dryer or stove, etc)...and taking that back to the panel...(and hopefully tripping the circuit breaker monitoring that circuit). The neutral - having an internal connection (and insulated) inside that device...can NOT do this...and this is the main purpose (and why it's required) for this isolated ground (isolated only in reference to the neutral)...to provide that extra safety path back to the panel....so that in the event of a fault or short - electricity has a quick way back to main ground. Without this ground path...the user might encounter a shock touching the device if it has an internal fault....or in the case of electronics - internal circuitry damage may occur. Technically...it is more or less redundant...the two wires have no difference in potential - as say, the hot black and neutral would...but the 2 wires now serve completely different purposes...once they leave the main panel.

Aloha HADave

S. China / Kurtistown

Black Raiders "Class of 71" We Go Unafraid

[Guest]

Thanks HADave.

Are you an electrician by trade? Or do you just know your stuff?

Once I move back to Puna, I will be looking to hook up with some general contractors for some small projects that I have lined up.

-----------------
Coming home soon!

[HADave]

Electrician? by definition no but I have lots of practical experience in and related fields and have always done all of my own work through the years. I'm pretty cranky about not being able to do it all in Hawaii, somehow it is not right......work done right is work done right, what one man can do another can do,.... guess I will never understand the whys of some code enforcements.....Oh well.

Good Luck with your projects !!

Aloha HADave

[jerry]

Speaking as an electrician and electrical contractor, there is some bad information here.

Note that Damon said light switch, not receptacle. There is no need for a neutral in a switch--but it might be there.

If you just have two wires one is hot in, one is hot out. With newer wiring you may have a ground (bare) but not in this case.

A lot of old wire has insulation the same color. And so old the insulation breaks off if you move it. Shrink tube can replace the insulation better than tape.

An induction tester can tell you which is the hot in but this knowledge is not crucial.

Newer places will have a black and white wire but there is no guarantee that the black is the hot in. If the wires are going directly from the switch to the light fixture then the white should be the hot in to the switch. Why? Because it is against the code to have a white wire bring the hot into the light fixture.

Assuming of course this is not low voltage lighting--and I recently reworked a place built in 1951 that had low voltage to the switches.

Bottom line in this case, just replace the switch.

As you can see, even something as simple as a light switch can get complicated fast. Which is why my professional services are in demand!

As an aside, you can replace an ungrounded receptacle only with another ungrounded receptacle--no U shaped hole in the front of the device. If you use a GFI in this situation you have to put on a label that says "no equipment ground." These come in the box with the GFI.

Jerry
Art and Orchids B&B
http://www.artandorchids.com

[Menehune]

If you want a fairly straight forward explanation with 'pictures' Georgia State University has a very informative site.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hba...nd.html#c3

I agree with - jerry - If you have any doubt - call a professional - electrician or electrical contractor.

Joey



Time will tell - I'm listening?
Time will tell - I should have been speaking?

[HADave]

I think I just got slammed, PLEASE forgive my arrogance as I forget the company I'm in, in this open forum. Only trying to be helpful... which was not my place as I am not licenced to do so and was just reminded of, kindly I might add.

Having said that, The info I provided was more than neccessary, but not bad. I believe, Damon, you asked if a ground was neccessary as you replaced your older wiring switch. I merely was trying to explain that the ground wire and nuetral wire return to the same place in the panel. So if a seperate ground wire is not there in the first place, such as Damon's case, than one does not need it. This can now lead to differences in fuse and circut breaker systems. I'll not go there

Yes, residential wiring can be daunting and when in doubt Always consult a licenced professional.

Aloha HADave

[mella l]

Rant warning, Rant warning! The hyper-sensitive need not read the following.

Ah Wyntah you can do our wiring, we'd feel privileged! We could do like Nancy F, who did her own by the by, and then pay someone to sign off!

If a lifetime of experience doesn't count then I'm wondering what does? Does a lifetime of experience know anything about selective geography? Curiouser and curiouser.

The opening post on the thread was "Question for someone w/ general knowledge", and you fit the bill to a capitol T and surpass that request, with proper cautions applied.

Now that we are rid of PP, couldn't turn that around sorry to say, some grand ideas, so now we have the BB forum. Um me cranky pants?

Aloha with a "Mele Kalikimaka e Hau'oli Makahiki Hou" that the wonder and amazement of the season fill all our hearts and minds.

mella l

[mella l]

Doubles anyone, sorry LOL!

Edited by - mella l on 12/20/2007 07:42:52

[gtill]

I'm certainly not an electrician, but I found out about surge protectors the hard way, In lost all my electronics to one during a surge/blackout. When buying one, make sure it is made for what you are trying to protect. What I had was for small appliances, but that isn't plainly marked on the unit. Mabe one of you whizzos can elaborate!