Burning the Future - Coal

[DanielP]

A second thought:

Perhaps the SO2 problem is caused by the bottom of the well's proximity to the magma chamber and environmental problem is caused by the top of the well's proximity to sensitive forests. What about wells drilled at various angles from up on the saddle which could access the heat and stay away from the SO2 and the sensitive forest?

Will someone get working on that please?

Dan

[gtill]

Daniel, the replies against geo really ring hollow, the history of PGV began with a joint UH, and various drillers from the mainland! Their early well vented right into the atmosphere in front of Leilani Subdivision! After years of haggle, Ormat took it over, went to a reinjection system, solving most all emission problems! They have been problem free for at least 5years, and I believe 10 .

They are the only source including oil fired units that have a 100% no down time, even with the earthquake!
The plant is capable of 100% supply for the whole Island! HELCO however says they don't have the carrying capacity to deliver from Puna to Kona side! Go figure!

The Plant got off to a bad start while under UH direction, since Ormat has takenover, there hasen't been a problem, and much of the complaint about them is from potential competetors, or nitpicking enviros!

The company has bent over to build a fund for those driven out by any plant caused problems! Since it is now in the millions, the county wants to steal it for other uses! That's how sure they are that Geothermal not a problem!

It's the Matson Monopoloy HELCO, who is ripping everybody off.
Basic hookup for PV solar from HELCO costs about 50,000$ for a decent unit! Only an Oil Tycoon could afford that kind of startup?

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DanielP

Damon,
Would you care to esplain yourself further?

---

Funny you would want me to elaborate on something... as the last time I did... you specifically called me a troll for doing so.

If your willing to look into things a bit further, you can read some Sierra Club info regarding the Puna rainforest here

It's a long fight and there are many issues to deal with.

I suggest you google some stuff...

this may give just a glimpse of much of shat that goes on regarding these lands.





-------
Moved

[DanielP]

Damon,

Thanks for the links.

By the way. Specifically, in one instance, I suggested that you were trolling, not that you were a troll. A significant difference.

Let it go, Bro.

Dan

[DanielP]

gtill,

Mahalo for the info. I Googled puna geothermal and now have a ton of educating of myself to do.

I am interested in the input of other Punawebbers on the various issues, both pro and con.

Aloha, Dan

[mgeary]

It's worthwhile to Google "geothermal sulphur" "Iceland geothermal" and simply "geothermal". There is a lot of information out there.

I am certainly no authority, but from what I can gather, sulphur is ubiquitous in all geothermal energy processes, from Iceland to California, Italy and elsewhere. Sulphur is a known problem with geothermal energy, and processes to deal with it (sulphur) must be a part of the package. There are problems inherent in any alternative energy, the question is how to mitigate those problems.

I don't know where you got the idea that Puna steam is "dirtier" than any other geothermal steam, jerry. Can you back that up with some documentation? Here are some concentrations for Icelandic H2S, S2O3 and SO4. "H2S, S2O3 and SO4 are found to be the dominant forms of sulfur with concentrations up to 73, 22 and 5060 mg/L, respectively, and H2S:S2O3:SO4 molar ratios between 0:0:1 to 1.2:0.7:1" The drinking water in Reykjavic tastes sulphurous, according to another website.

And, for Damon, the fabulous forests of Puna are indeed a natural wonder. The challenge is to find out how to extract geothermal energy to benefit Hawaiian society (many Icelanders get free hot water and subsidized electricity) with the least impact to the forest and it's inhabitants, IMHO. To simply declare the huge source of energy "off limits" is irresponsible, or at the very least, wasteful and impractical, in these times. I believe we should be looking for alternatives to burning carbon, whether it's coal, natural gas, or petroleum.

NIMBY's don't want renewable energy sources such as wind farms (see Sen. Ted Kennedy's opposition to the proposed farm off the Martha's Vineyard coastline), hydroelectric (see opposition from environmental activists to dam construction around the globe), nuclear power (same), and now, geothermal energy (see Damon's posts, above). What is the alternative to fossil fuels if wind, hydroelectric, nuclear, and geothermal are all declared unacceptable by the locals? How are we ever going to do anything about global warming if nobody wants some new project constructed in their backyard?

Aloha! ;-)

[DanielP]

Great post mgeary!

Dealing with the mitigation of the negative impacts of geothermal is paramount for the future, so let's start now. In 10 years we will be so upsidedown with energy usage it is scary.

Biomass is dirty and uses lots of land, wind is aeshetically challenging and has many other problems as well. Tidal has some promise, but many technical and potential environmental problems.

With Geothermal, it seems to me that there is such a vast amount of potential energy to tap into. virtually unlimited.

Getting Geothermal on the front burner seems like best avenue now.

Dan

[gtill]

The sulphur concentrations are moot as to the geo plant, beause what comes out turns the turbines, charges a heat exchanger and goes right back to where it came from! there have been no complaints about emissions from the neighbohood for at least 5 years! Even during the earthquake! The plant is scheduled to increase it's size to 38mw sometime soon! That is all HELCO will allow! HELCO makes a kiling on all other phases of electric generation,(40-50000$) for solar hookup, your cost! Geothermal could easily power the whole island, but HELCO says their lines won't carry the load! The HELCO monopoly must be broken!

For geothermal, try google NZ, whre they have turned some geo operations to Maori groups, to run and own! Why not here with the Hawaiians! Also Nevada!

Definetly don't buy that sulphur damages the forests, they thrive on it! And not to negate the danger of sulphur, if there was a leak, chances are it won't be much more than the vog we're presently experiencing, and the co. is ready for any contingency! They even have some 3 million rainy day fund for any problems, which, true to form, the county is trying to steal!

[MarkP]

Hawaii is unique in the world in that it is so near to cold deep ocean water that can be used to generate electricity (Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion) or that can at least be used to displace air conditioning loads for large scale users. However, everything depends on the cost of energy. Eventually energy costs will make many alternative energy sources viable.

However, implementation of OTEC, wind, geothermal, hydropower, etc. is not a trivial challange. There is no way around the fact that fossil fuels are wonderfully easy to obtain and use compared to the alternatives. OTEC would require huge pipes. The originally cold and now only cool water, once cooled, is still a different temperature than the near shore surface waters. It is a waste product that must be disposed of properly in accordance with an NPDES permit. You can no longer get permits to dispose of anything, even cool seawater, into any bay or harbor so the Hilo hotels and condos would face a particularly expensive installation. OTEC would be an excellent baseload like geothermal but would have high initial costs for infrastructure and installation.

Wind is intermittant. I don't buy the line about windmills killing lots of birds unless they are in a migration corridor or other unique circumstance. The big deal is that us energy addicts are so consistantly hungry for a fix that intermittant sources such as wind, solar, wave power, even tidal power, not being continuous and controllable, aren't able to supply our needs. No matter what we will need to modify our needs. The power companies already offer preferred rates for off peak use and even interruptable use, meaning you agree that they can pull the plug on you for short periods without any notice. That's fine if you are filling a water tank in the middle of the night but not so cool for grandpa's iron lung.

Wave power has so far been hard to harness economically. The ocean beats the hell out of things and is notorious for being, if nothing else, highly variable. Also, I would think that surfers would object to draining waves of their energy.

Hydropower is intermittant unless you have a reservoir. Reservoirs are not environmentally benign. They have even been implicated in global warming because they usually replace forest and they generate methane gase in their bottom sediments.

Hawaii doesn't have big shallow tidal flats and doesn't have widely varying tides. I don't see wave power as being a candidate for Hawaii.

Solar is good both for direct heating of water and for PV electricity. I don't know how much energy it takes to produce a solar panel but I understand that now PV panels actually produce more energy over their lifetime than was consumed when they were manufactured. I think that in the past this was not always so. Obviously it is a consideration. Also, for a stand alone system you will need batteries for night time. Batteries are full of lead and acid and are not good for the environment.

I am sure there are other sources I have left out. As you can see, there is no really easy answer. Even burning wood causes deforestation in undeveloped nations. The most green policy for Haiti would be to make sure everyone has a propane stove to cook with. Conservation must play a huge part but will not be the only answer. Imagine going skydiving but forgetting your parachute. You can stick your arms and legs out and slow way down, but unless you can slow down enough..... More than anything conservation will allow us to fit our energy use to the supply that is available.

[jdirgo]

This probably should be in one of the threads about the WTE plant -- but does anyone know if http://www.plascoenergygroup.com/ was one of the other companies that made a offer to the Council? Not an ideal solution to be sure, but if we 1) have a garbage problem and 2) have an energy problem -- why not try to kill two birds with one stone?

That sounds really hostile -- how about "mitigate a two-bird situation with a simple non-toxic, non-lethal intervention"?

John Dirgo, R, ABR, e-PRO
Aloha Coast Realty, LLC
808-987-9243 cell
http://www.alohacoastrealty.com