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Here's a very sensible place to start putting some "aloha" back in community.
Let me point out that a good portion of the reason many of you(us, myself included) have moved to Hawaii was the cost of property here, on the Big Island in particular. The simple transparent reason property on the Big Island is disproportionately inexpensive is that there is a great deal of poverty here. Certainly, there's a certain culture here that has a certain allergy to work, but as well there are a large number of truly disadvantaged people here who may have never had the opportunity or stability in life to educate themselves out of their position.
If we're serious about restoring community spirit, let's pay living wages? Especially for those of us who have had the opportunities in life or made our money elsewhere where it was easier to do so--we must realize that offering starvation wages is simply an affront. People may take them, but capitalizing on desperation is hardly friendly, it certainly doesn't smack of Aloha, and certainly doesn't bring a community together, as everybody is full aware of what's going on: exploitation.
James, I hope you don't take this as a personal attack, because it is not, but let me suggest that if you're serious about rebuilding community, 12 dollars an hour is a starvation wage.
12 bucks, you take home 8. Self employed right?
64 bucks a day.
10 bucks in fuel just to get you there.
If you actually worked hard, you'll eat 10 bucks.
You might like to take a shower. That will cost 1 dollar.
You'll do laundry once a week. At that wage you're living someplace that doesn't have washer and dryer, so that will cost you 12 bucks a week, so 2 dollars a day.
By the way, where are you living? If you're not living in a tent in the brush you'll be paying 500 dollars a month, or 15 dollars a day.
40 dollars a day is pretty sensible to be fed, and not live in the dirt.
Could any of the rest of you live on 800 dollars a month?
That of course assumes you're working full time, which you won't because you're committed to working part time labor, and if it rains and you miss a day, well, that day you're out of luck.
Now, of the remaining 400 or so dollars:
You'll pay your car insurance to get there. Unless you're too desperate to cheat on that.
Health insurance? You must be kidding.
Dental care? Not unless you're dying.
A telephone? Luxury expense.
You'll dress in rags, because if you're working hard you'll destroy your wardrobe once a month.
Woe to you if you get hurt. Woe to your kid, if you've got one.
Personally, I wouldn't or couldn't in good conscious hire anyone to dig a hole for less than 20. When I was in high school, you'd get near 10 for farm work, that's in '85. As for skill levels, let me point out that the primary skill required in all tasks is the skill to actually get a job done, and anybody with that skill, as far as I'm concerned, is worth their money, and anybody without that skill, is worth nothing. Generally speaking, people with the skill to work have a lot of other skills too, but that's not so bad all things being considered.
Of course you have a right to hire whoever you want. But, please, if you hire someone, treat them like a human being.
I would enjoy hearing other opinions on this score. I would suggest that the issue is pertinent and important.
quote:
Originally posted by JWFITZ
...I hope you don't take this as a personal attack, because it is not, but let me suggest that if you're serious about rebuilding community, 12 dollars an hour is a starvation wage....
[  ]
That was a personal attack on about 80% of the Employers here in Hawaii [  ]
Did you know there are State and Government workers that only make $12.00 dollars an hour?
I know families that get by on less than that per hour... thus you have so many people in Hawaii working two jobs or more just to keep a roof over there head.
Living in Puna is relatively cheap compared to say.... Oahu.
The wages are the same.... but the housing costs are much higher.
Fitz... wheres your book that you need to write? [8D]
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It is the way... the way it is.
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JWITZ, Dr.Weatherford offered $12 + meals.Pam was paying
$10,and as she mentioned herself about the eggs price,the market is what it is.
So on the feelings about about living wages,I totally agree with you.More than you can imagine.
But as far as the reality is concerned,I have to agree with Pam,whether I like it or not.
___________________________
Whatever you assume,please
just ask a question first.
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I agree with the spirit of what Fitz is saying; it's definitely going to be a starvation wage if it's your only gig and you have a family to feed, mortgage payments, etc.
In defense of Dr. W, I know some high school kids looking for work that would love to get $12/hour. Heck, I'd even be interested in the work for the educational experience if I could LEARN something about agriculture, etc. (But unlike Damon, I'd take the $12 :-)
Ideally the employer would have the flexibility to adjust wages based on the productivity of worker. (I know, then you've got the headache of formal evaluation systems, etc.) But if someone is consistently putting out twice the amount of work than everyone else, then they're twice as valuable in my book; paying them $20/hour would not only be fair, it'd be a bargain. As the old adage goes, you get what you pay for.
My feeling is that Dr. W's heart is in the right place and he is trying to contribute to the community...but I can't say that for many other businesses here...
Tim
Tim
A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions--Confucius
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We recently signed up through the state of Hawaii to be the chore/ care giver for an elderly neighbor. The state pays Hawaii minimum Wage for taking care of our elderly. Seven something an hour. I cant imagine living on that. Also you are not a state employee you are the elderly persons employee. So if you get hurt on the job you don't even have workers insurance. Your only recourse is to sue the elderly person you are caring for. Seems like a set up for disaster in every way. Low pay and the potential for the elderly getting sued. I wonder how many big island business pay minimum wage? It weird to think that Taco Bell in Kona will pay 12+ and hour but the state only pays 7+ to take care of our elderly.
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Aloha Jay,
There are huge legal - as well as moral - differences between hiring "project labor" and hiring an "employee". I think Dr. W & Pam were both looking for what would be considered "project labor" and they aren't looking for an official employee.
Frequently when folks are working as a "project hire" they have another job and the project work they are doing is side money and not the money they actually live on. If someone is willing to work for $10 an hour to help weed whack a back yard and their real job is rocket scientist then they can afford to eat and what they make as project labor doesn't really matter. If some high school kid wants to work for $10 an hour project labor, he's probably just trying to get cash for a skateboard or iPod and he's not starving no matter how little he makes as a yard worker. I don't see any guilt in hiring those sorts of folks since the person hiring the project labor usually doesn't have that much money to spend on the particular project. Hopefully, the workers will learn some sort of skill while working on the project (whatever it is) although some projects are just sweat work with no real skill involved.
I hired a "demolition crew" for a week and paid them one skateboard plus lunches for a weeks' worth of work. Of course, their parents weren't charged babysitting fees either or the skateboards would have just about been paid for by their parents at the end of the week. Picked the three kids up, let them destroy things, fed them, took them back to their parents when the parents got off work and even taught the kids how to lay ceramic tiles by the end of the week. Teenagers make great demolition crews should you need one. This arrangement worked well, the parents didn't have to pay for day care, the kids had a great time AND got their skateboards and the project got finished on time. These kids didn't need the money to live on, what they actually needed was adult supervision during the day for that week. Their parents couldn't afford summer camp or skateboards at least this way the kids got the skateboards.
Actually, what I would like to see is more self employed skilled folks out there creating things or doing services so they can create their own incomes. If they charge by the item produced or by the service instead of by the hour and if they work fast and efficiently, then they can make a living wage and the person hiring them can afford it as well.
Also, if the skilled folks hired apprentices then they would end up with a skill as well as get paid to learn it. Apprenticeships used to be something that folks paid to get so if they were valuable two hundred years ago, are they still valuable now?
"I like yard sales," he said. "All true survivalists like yard sales."
Kurt Wilson
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quote:
Originally posted by Damon
[quote]Originally posted by JWFITZ
12 dollars an hour is a starvation wage....
Interesting.
I am not offended.
Now, let me clarify a few points.
The $12/hr was arrived at by way of paying more than the $10/hr that some others had been paying the same people. Also, $12/hr is the going rate for unskilled construction site helpers.
Who gets paid this? A few points describe:
'Day labor' (btw, which I did in Kentucky in the '80's for minimum wage ~$3/hr, for landscaping work and moving heavy furniture).
Skills required are always minimum and it is amazing how many adults > age 20yrs have no experience using the most basic tools (shovel, wheelbarrow, etc) and zero idea of what happens in a garden, much less anything about livestock and poultry.
Is $12/hr all they get? No.
Most of the time it also includes at least lunch, sometimes breakfast, and often transportation to and/or from work. Almost every one leaves with some fruit, and sometimes lots of it. Also, when we know the people do not have acces to a shower, we invite them to take a shower before the leave (we have a nice H&C water shower outside that we use after working -- we supply towel, soap, and shampoo. On a few occasions, we have picked up a hitch-hiker, put them up them overnight, they worked the next day and we paid them -- always careful to determine who is trustworthy before making the overnight offer and have done OK so far.
Two sides of how much is the right pay:
One, how much gets done and the value of it.
We do not expect day labor to perform grand tasks of great economic impact. Just simple stuff that frees up our own time to do other stuff. For example, pulling weeds from around pineapples or spreading mulch around bananas -- $12/hr is already not a sure positive outcome, depending on how much they are able to do. And, $20/hr would be way past what pineapples and bananas would pay for.
So, JW, how to get past this conundrum?
Two, what can be done with that whatever $/hr? and what are the other alternatives?
Granted, $12/hr does not support an expansive lifestyle. With care, it can go a long way.
Since the workers at our place are generally only doing one or two days a week, they do have time to do other work that may or may not pay more (and, to forage for food in the jungle -- which I also have a lot of personal experience doing to get by). For example, on person who has been working for us on and off for a while, is living at another farm where he works part-time to pay for his room and board, and then works for us one or two days a week to get some cash.
Is the situation as good as we can hope for? Absolutely not.
Still, to pay so much that the whole enterprise becomes untenable would not be to anyone's long-term benefit.
James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park
Dr. W -
I think you misquoted me [ ]
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It is the way... the way it is.
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quote:
Originally posted by Hotzcatz...
I hired a "demolition crew" for a week and paid them one skateboard plus lunches for a weeks' worth of work. Of course, their parents weren't charged babysitting fees either or the skateboards would have just about been paid for by their parents at the end of the week. Picked the three kids up, let them destroy things, fed them, took them back to their parents when the parents got off work and even taught the kids how to lay ceramic tiles by the end of the week. Teenagers make great demolition crews should you need one. This arrangement worked well, the parents didn't have to pay for day care, the kids had a great time AND got their skateboards and the project got finished on time. These kids didn't need the money to live on, what they actually needed was adult supervision during the day for that week. Their parents couldn't afford summer camp or skateboards at least this way the kids got the skateboards...
This is exactly what I imagine restoring community values is about!
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Once I was sent to Kona to train and manage a crew of temporary hires on an agricultural job. During the course of the job I found out they were making about $3/hr more than I was.
When I got back and asked the owner about it, he just shrugged and said: "There's a different scale over there".
Related story:
A small business owner went out on the loading dock to discover a guy sitting on a pallet smoking a cigerette. He says to the guy: "How much do you get paid?". The guy answers: "$300 bucks a week".
The boss pulls out three hundred dollar bills, hands them to the guy and says: "Now get out of here". The guy leaves.
Still angry, the boss goes up to the foreman and asks how long the guy has worked there. The forman says: He doesn't work here, he was making a delivery.
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