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The End of Universal Health Care for Children
#11
Children will and do grow up to be slackers when the culture permits.
One of my favorite movies of all time is "Cinderella Man" I don't get in to boxing at all but there are so many great parts in that movie. Three of them are:
1. when he catches his son with the stolen big sausage and takes him back to the Butcher and makes him return it. He tells his son that hunger is no excuse for steeling.
2. When he has to swallow his pride and take welfare money.
3. When he repays the money to the system.

Just because you are needy, that is no excuse to take something that someone else worked so hard for. That goes for man, woman and child.

When the government takes taxes for infrastructure and military protection, that is something that we arguably all benefit from and could not pay for individually. Food, Housing, Clothing and medicine are things that fall with in our own financial discretion and responsibility.
If you give people stuff without requiring they work for it, you will eventually destroy their soul and self worth. I don't have a problem personally with a very lean running welfare system, but what people expect today is just incredible.

My Sister works for a housing program that subsidizes are pays in full the rent of low income people. Trust me. 99.999% of these people are just takin' what they can get and know how to maneuver within the system to never lose holdt of that government teat.

What we really need to do is show our brothers and sisters that it is from hard word, thrift and industry that we can ease our pain. We also should be pragmatic enough to know that we are going to die. My child’s life is more precious to me than it is to you, just as my life and health is more precious to me than to you, so my families health and welfare should not be maintained by stealing your corn.

There are numerous groups and churches that do charity work and will gladly accept donations.


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#12
Rather astounding statements I must say. Sounds like poverty is crime. Children are responsible for the sins of their fathers.

So it is indeed Every Man for Himself.

Education is something that society previously agreed upon as a social good. So I will ask: Are all these slacker children entitled to an education or is that also something that should be on a pay as you go - perhaps child labor would be appropriate.
Assume the best and ask questions.

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#13
Sorry Esnap; Normally I find myself in agreement with you, But with society the way it is now. Medical care for children is infrastructure. now matter how hard a middle class person works there is no way they can afford to pay for a serious illness for their children. I agree that eliminating 3rd party payers would lower medical costs, but right now a serious illness will bankrupt anyone trying to foot the bill themselves. I've already seen families lose their homes over just the copay and uncovered cost. And these were people with Insurance. Do we let children suffer or die while we try to revamp a badly broken system. Not I think in a civilized society.

dick wilson
dick wilson
"Nothing is idiot proof,because idiots are so ingenious!"
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#14
Dick, Then we can agree that 3rd party payment does not work. When people know that their customer is not the one footing the bill, they rape the 3rd party payer. In Canada you can wait months for treatment. That same procedure performed on your pet will cost a fraction of the amount and be accessible that very week. But when we as civilized humans think about getting a 5000.00 operation, we just plop our big asses on the gurney and say do it. When you are looking to get you house roofed, you get 3 bids. I think if we had real free market forces working in the system, procedures that cost 10.000.00 would be 3000.00. And some things we'd just not do because we are too cheap (me) People talk a lot about health care but of those people talking, how many are over weight, eat poorly and don't exercise? I can see where we as a civilized society would spring for orphaned children’s heath and wellbeing but shouldn't the parents of the others have some fiduciary responsibility of their own child? Maybe the Medical community should provide pro bono services for the needy.

A leading Medical ethicist in England recently stated that we should euthanize the aged as they are to much of a burden on the system. All of the Socialized medical programs on Earth basically suck and are running in the red. There are county hospitals in Texas that are shutting down because of the influx of illegal aliens that get services and have no intention of paying.
Co-pays:
I recently discovered that I have severe sleep apnea. I figured out through Googling the web that I would benefit from a CPAP machine. I found the devices online, but was not allowed to buy one without a prescription. So the next day I called my doctor and asked for a prescription. She told me that she could not do it unless I had a sleep study done.
I promptly got on Craigslist and bought one from a nice lady in Houston. I still thought I should maybe get the sleep study so I called around. The cheapest place in Houston was 2400.00 and most insurance companies have a 1200.00 co-pay. So I called back and told them that I was going to pay cash and was shopping for the best cash price. The same clinic said they’d do it for 500.00
I went to a doctor to get a small procedure. When I went to the window to pay, the bill was 275.00. The girl said that she would bill the insurance company. I said I’ll just pay cash. Luckily the Doctor overheard me say that as he walked passed and said “oh, cash… hum 45 bux”

I know there is something wrong with our health care system, but more 3rd party payments, especially via communism aint the fix we need.

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#15
if the Canadian healthcare is so bad ...why aren't they flooding across to the usa? why are we going to canada and mexico to buy meds(and get dental in mexico)?
the basic problem is running healthcare through any type of
for-profit insurance company...insurance companies siphon off aproximately $1 trillion of the $2.4 trillion spent on healthcare per year for profit,advertising etc...it's a very inefficient way of delivering healthcare ...which is the point i guess....
a single-payer medicare type system'd solve that ...payments would go directly to doctors,clinics,pharmacists...etc...

i find it interesting that people have this aversion to any kind of social spending as some type of socialist or communist conspiracy....don't we like those socialist programs like the fire department and police? one of the greatest handicaps on american competitiveness is a lack of a universal health system....all our major trade competitors have it...japan,korea,canada...europe...even china!!!

the personal responsibility thing seems to be kinda strange too...talk about a police state! now we will control your diet for maximum corporate profits! how many people speed or jaywalk...or eat too fast.. eat raw fish etc...all behaviors that can affect your risk of health trouble...do we need cameras to make sure you didn't get hurt playing football you little kid? football's dangerous behavior you know...
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#16
Who doesn't want to help kids!? Oh those nasty conservatives...

Wait... if they continually go over budget due to people un-fairly taking advantage of it, then what are you willing to give up to pay for it Rob? Education? Roads? Parks? Police? Fire Department? Or would you rather they increase your taxes, so that people who can afford their own healthcare, dump their healthcare so that their kids can get it for free? Which is what is happening.

So are they just callously dumping them on their rears? No. HMSA is going to give them coverage until the end of the year, in the meantime they can enroll in Medicaid. "Families with children currently enrolled in the universal system are being encouraged to seek more comprehensive Medicaid coverage, which may be available to children in a family of four earning up to $73,000 annually." -Associated Press

We conservatives aren't children haters. We just realize that their are limits to where the money can go. Hawaii is facing a $900 million dollar deficit by 2011. Either taxes have to go up significantly, or you cut programs that can be cut with minimal problems. Medicaid is already footing the bill for the majority of these kids... so why even have it?

I agree with esnap in a lot of ways. Prevention care is much more effective than first-aid care, which we have today. I look at my profession, chiropractic, in which we advocate prevention everyday. Just like getting your teeth cleaned, getting you back checked 1-2 times a year, even if you don't have any troubles, can save you thousands down the road. For example if you get a chiropractic checkup every month (much more than is necessary if you don't have back problems) and pay cash for it, it costs about $600 bucks a year at $50 per visit, which is normal on the island. If you don't and something happens and you need surgery, the average cost of back surgery today is $70,000 with rehab included.... that's worth 110 years of chiropractic care right there!

If we could put more and more emphasis into prevention care like esnap (eating right, exercise etc) described we could save billions. For example, Diabetes which is on the rise due to obesity costs the US $174 billion per year... Cardiovascular disease which is also on the rise due to obesity and poor eating habits costs the US over $300 billions per year. Obesity also leads to certain types of cancer like colon, rectal and kidney. It can lead to infertility, pregnancy complications, depression, etc. etc. etc. A preventable problem costing us trillions of dollars a year if you add it all up.

Prevention is the key.... I would rather pay for an oil change, then pay for a new engine when my engine blows. Why can't we adopt this attitude towards our most important asset... HEALTH!

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#17
DrJ. The state government is giving itself 35% pay raise while at the same time cutting funds for education and health care.

So you are right. Apparently there are limits to where the money can go (unless it's Wall St.).
Assume the best and ask questions.

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#18
right wing conservative health care plan: emergency room
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#19
bodysurf,
You hit the nail on the head about insurance companies adding a huge layer of costs. It is almost like paying for health care with what you have left in your pocket after leaving a casino. Sure a few hit the jack pot but most lose their money to the house (mob) because casinos, like the insurance companies have house odds that are greatly in their favor.

But you are wrong about Canada. Yes they may have some medicines that are cheaper but heck Wal-mart has almost any prescription you need for $4.00. That is the free market doing what it does “kicks ass”. As soon as Wally-World started the 4 dollar drug plan their competitors started following suit, now Target, Kroger, and many other stores offer that same low price. There are many drugs that can be switch over to a wal-mart provided generic. And I would submit to you also that more than 50% of the drugs consumed in the U.S. could be stopped with actual health benefits.

There are approximately 4000 deaths in the U.S every 6 weeks just from adverse drug reactions.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLR_enUS267US267&q=micheal%20crighton%20state%20fear&um=1&sa=N&tab=wv#

There are NO Americans flying up to Canada to get operations, but you can be sure there are tons of Canadians that come to the U.S. for operations. In fact there are companies called Medical Brokers ( http://timelymedical.ca/ ) in Canada that specialize in coordinating air transport and surgery arrangements for Canadians, Where? You ask, in the good ol’ U.S. of A... watch this http://timelymedical.ca/news-video-1.html

In Canada it is illegal to pay for medical care yourself. You are at the mercy of the vagaries of their system.

But you can take your pet to a vet and get treatment that day for a very reasonable price. Vets even provide amenities as inducements to earn your business; free parking, house calls special sales on vaccines etc. ( That is because it is purely a free market system )

Many Europeans fly to India for surgery the industry even has a name “Medical Tourism”. About 100,000 Britons fly out of England to get medical care each year.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/779310/med...hospitals/ Now remember, England has socialized medicine.
Sure people go to Mexico for Dental procedures, but that is not because it is better. Mexico operates on a different economy, it is just cheaper.

There is a new trend w/ some doctors. They charge real cheap prices for visits and basic stuff like shots etc.
it's called C.O.D. Cash Only Doctors.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5014568/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/0...0269.shtml

What they have come to know, is that if they do a cash only ( no insurance, no checks, no credit) and charge 20 dollar office visits, they can have a very slim staff and actually make decent profit because they are getting their money fast and don't have to have extra staff to file for Medicare and insurance that routinely deny or kick back claims because of improper procedure codes. ( back to the Casinos trying to Welch on the bet)
What I think is that
1. Medical insurance drives the price up.
2. Single payer systems drive the quality and availability down

Can I not get anyone to agree? Do not empirical facts hold any currency of persuasion?

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#20
maybe those of us who are forced to spend our tax money(hundreds of billions with no end in sight)on oil and gas wars can instead opt out and spend that money on our socialist health care? wow, that's a novel idea, health care over unnessary war!
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