You dirty rat you

[JWFITZ]

I will suggest again that with current state of law as it exists on the federal level, and where it is going to be here soon in Hawaii, it might be very intelligent on the part of some to join me in advocating sensible responsible gun ownership, rather than indulging in dogmatic absolutism that is neither rational nor ultimately a sustainable position.

We'll be a "must issue" state before long. I promise you.

[Greg]

I think I agree, Jay.

I'm not sure if it's "dogmatic absolutism", but I still feel that illegaly plinking at vermin in a residential neighborhood is neither sensible or responsible. There are alternatives.

[Rob Tucker]

I thought sensible was what we were talking about.

Punaweb moderator

[Jon]

It probably has more to do with the miles open land on both sides of the neighborhood, huh....

I also take offense at the "(lots of rats?)" comment. You might want to restate it in such a way that it is not so insulting... unless that is what you were trying to do.

quote:

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Originally posted by Greg

Jon mentioned that shooting is pretty common in the Beaches. I imagine that's because people there put up with it (lots of rats?). It's not so common in my neighborhood, because we don't. It's not just me, it's a policy encouraged by our neighborhood board and endorsed by Officer Briski our very cool and helpful community policing dude.

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Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[JWFITZ]

As I see it, many of you are falling for Tom's carefully crafted script. I'm sure he's busting gut watching me run interference for him, but the issue is a meaningful one and must be dealt with in a constructive manner. Under current federal guidelines I seriously doubt if Tom's case went to court that it would be of violation of any sort of anything. Shooting a rat, in a tree, with the lowest possible caliber birdshot in no way, in no context could be construed with any definition of endangerment. In fact, it's likely far less dangerous than any other possible means of dealing with a rat. You find indoor gun ranges in residential and and very urban environments, these are not illegal either. The issues are much more mundane than "discharging a firearm." The issues may be whether or nor anyone was endangered, and of course this is an issue relative to all sorts of activities, not just fire arms. As well, I could see civil infractions such as noise ordinances applied to the issue, but again this isn't strictly a firearms issue, but one of due diligence and caution, and while the attitude exists that it is "utterly impossible ever in any way in any context for any reason" to "discharge a firearm" in a safe and sensible manner--well, the result isn't going to be what many expect, or so I expect.

[Jon]

What?
you expect everyone to know how to compost, how to build their own solar hot water heater, grown their own food and so on, but not know anything about a tool that has been around for hundreds of years? Every man woman and child should be educated on fire arms.


The main reason we all get to fear random gun fire is because the bad guys know that no one will shoot back.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Tucker

Jay I think you are very wrong. Why should any parent be expected to discern the difference between one gun shot and another? That's nuts. At what age would you expect children to be making this determination? Why especially should anyone in a neighborhood have to be in fear of random gunfire anyway?


Punaweb moderator

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Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[Jon]

Ding ding ding ding.... we have a winner...
A gun fight (even with only one gun) has more then on shot fired 99.9999% of the time.

quote:

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Originally posted by JWFITZ

The point is kids trying to stir up trouble in a neighborhood in the manner I described--remember, I've worked with these kids, and know the tricks first hand--throw light bulbs to simulate the sound of gunfire to draw policemen with near immunity. We live in a complicated world. If you live in a world where anti-gun zealotry is so extreme that it can be manipulated and utilized as a tool to commit crime, there is obviously a problem.

I wouldn't consider my neighbor shooting a rat to be "random gunfire." There's nothing random about it. Especially in a rural or near rural community. People have large problems with feral animals, and pig hunting is a fact of life for many local families. Obviously, I'm not asking people to determine by sound one caliber from another--that's craziness. But I don't think it asks a lot of discernment to tell the difference between a single "bang" and a "bang, bang---bangbangbangbang, bang bang."

Of course, if you hear something that "discernment" might suggest required a police presence, call the police! It is important to note that there are other risks in such behavior as well, and in the world we live in a higher level of common sense than is common is warranted, and as much as anything offer a counterpoint to what appears to me to be near hysterical paranoia.

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Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[Jon]

Again did you note that miles of open land on both sides of the neighborhood? Or the Fact of the neighborhood only being 1 mile wide? So that open land is 1/2 mile or less away from everyones homes?

quote:

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Originally posted by csgray

I recently spent a day driving around Lack's neighborhood looking at houses, and after driving almost every street I have some observations: this is not a "semi-rural" neighborhood, it is a subdivision with many houses on 7-10,000 sq. ft. lots; there were many children out playing in and near the streets, especially the dead end ones; there were also many moms pushing strollers, people out walking and running, and people working in their yards; houses are close enough together that the sound of gunfire would be disturbing to many residents; and while we saw many loose dogs, but not a single one looked feral, or acted aggressive until you approached their driveway. Lack may be a decent shot and know how to pick appropriate ammo, but every time he shoots in his residential neighborhood with impunity he is giving tacit permission to every other person to "exercise his right" regardless of their skill level or judgment with firearms.

I grew up in a truly rural farming community where a gun was more of a tool than a weapon, but every deer hunting season I couldn't ride my horse in our own woods for fear some suburban hunter from the nearest city would shoot me. Other neighbors painted huge florescent stripes on their livestock to keep them safe. Guns are not inherently dangerous, but in the hands of fools they sure are. Gun control laws and regulation of where you can shoot exist because so many gun owners think they have the right to shoot any weapon, with any ammo, in any environment regardless of the rights of others to live without fear of being shot in their own yard. There is a time and a place for everything, but shooting guns on a suburban sized lot is just selfish and self serving; unless you are in dire circumstances where it is the only way to protect yourself or others.

If you are that concerned about diseases from rats then make it difficult for them to frequent your trees, wrapping the trunk with a smooth metal collar works well, and there are other products available too. Poison can be put in bait stations that keep neighborhood pets out, while letting rats in. I recommend getting a good ratting dog or cat, we had a 7 pound calico who killed a rat a day, every day, until the day she died. Once she had wiped out the population on our property she moved on to the neighbors' yards and went after their rats. We had one neighbor who threatened to shoot her for leaving paw prints on his windshield until he saw her take down a rat bigger than her that was working his bird feeder. Suddenly he became a big fan of that cat.

Are you sure this wasn't more about having a justification to shoot your gun that it was about getting rid of the rat? Otherwise, why post it to Punaweb?


Carol

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Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[MarkP]

Is ag zoned property "residential"?

I am torn. JWFITZ's opinion that context matters rings true with me. If you do have one busybody neighbor who routinely calls in what turns out to be otherwise law abiding citizens who are acting safely and with discretion, it is inevitable that there will be some fatigue on the part of law enforcement. Also, if this is ag land, controlling pests is part of what it takes to be a farmer, not that anyone really is in these subdivisions, but technically, controlling pests is to be expected on ag land.

Now the flip side. Clearly there is a latent hunting instinct in people that leads them to pursue hunting and firearms even when equally effective alternatives may be present. To be honest I am one of those people. My point is that while I might prefer to snipe rats with a gun, I recognize that a diligent program of trapping first and even poisoning would be more appropriate in many of Puna's subdivisions.

Personally I would not have turned anyone in for a single .22 cal shot where there was no other indication of wrongful intent or negligence.

I have to say that as I write this questions come to mind. I see ratshot as almost harmless. However, even a lowly .22 slug fired into the air can be hazardous if it beans someone on the head on the way down. Shooting shot above a certain size into the air would therefore be negligent.

I still say I would not call over a single shot with no other indicators.

[Jon]

So the next time someone on here says they want to keep Puna rural do I get to point back here? It sure sounds like you want to be like the big city to me.


Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"