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My brother-in-law shot and killed one and wounded another in a self-defense situation. The 2 armed robbers broke into his apartment (2nd floor) and repeatedly pistol-whipped him while demanding to know "where the money" was. They also struck his girlfriend. He was at home during the day because he was recuperating from recent back surgery.
They shoved him into his recliner chair, not knowing that as a proper Texan, he had a .44 Magnum hidden in the chair's side pocket. He killed the 1st one on the spot and shot the second one, twice; once in the back and once in the leg as the 2nd one ran down the stairs outside of his apartment trying to flee.
The district attorney refused to file charges against him, even though the second one was shot while fleeing.
He will tell you he has zero regrets and would not hesitate to do it again. He received hundreds of congratulatory cards and letters.
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JWFITZ, since your posting is directly below mine, I'm guessing you addressed what I wrote. If so, I'm confused as to why are you disagreeing with my recommendation of using a cylinder bore. I'm with you when you state that the pattern of a shotgun with a choke in a hallway (or anywhere else at close range) is only about 4 inches. That's why I suggested a cylinder bore as well as #4 Buck. We're talking about shooting people up close, not ducks in flight, and while I'm not versed on the advantage of using steel shot over lead, close range makes the issue somewhat irrelevant.
quote:
Originally posted by JWFITZ
I disagree.
You'll miss. It may surprise you but the pattern of a shotgun with a choke in a hallway in your home is only about 4 inches, if that. People expect the big hollywood blast, where all you have to do is just point in a general direction and cut loose. It isn't true. Having shot doubles for years in Idaho you'd be surprised to know the barrels don't point in the direction the sight does. There's parallax built into the barrels and they're not for the novice shooter.
Get a quality autoloader and learn to shoot it. One that can shoot 3 inch mags and learn to feed as fast as you can shoot. Which, of course, all duck hunters can. Shoot steel BB shot. It will take you at least 10 boxes of shells to get both familiar and capable with the tool.
It's important to look at these tools in the same way one might a radial arm saw. Without hyperbole, or anything else. It's a tools for a job, and a tool hopefully one never uses. Right?
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There is also the option with most shotguns to "power down" the load. Basically called "half loads", The shell has half the charge that a "full load" does. These loads are ideal for firing in cramped quarters where penetration is not a desireable effect. One of the most feared weapons by the Viet Cong in the Vietnam war was the 12 guage shotgun. Packed with Flechettes(mini darts) or 00 buck it was devasting. Most research indicates that a "gunfight" will occur in a distance of between 4 and 12 feet. This makes the 12 guage ideal.
In regards to 00 Buck rounds, firing a 00 buck shell is the equivelent of firing nine(9) 38. caliber pistols at the same time. These rounds are best fired from Magnum 3" shells for optimal results. There is also the option of 00 buck in half loads too, which have many uses in both home defense and hunting.
There was mention of "flat plates" as well. These are also commonly referred to as "flip-flops" and do an incredible amount of damage when used correctly.
The most devastating round to come out of "the business end" of a 12 guage is a 3" magnum rifled hollow point slug. The effective range of this round is approximately 100 yards. The only round I have knowledge of that is even close to this round is a sabot that is packed with 4 steel ball bearings and equals the slug in terms of devastating effect. There is also a sabot round packed with what can be best described as "mini bowling pins" and is very destructive as well.
I own both a pump action and a side by side 12 guage and I agree that there is no other sound in the world that will get your attention quicker than the racking of a 12 guage slide. I stack the 8 shot 12 guage alternating in 3" magnum shells, buck shot,slug, buck shot, slug. In the side by side or double barrel, as most call it, I have one chamber loaded with a 12 guage rescue flare and the other is 3" magnum 00 buck shell. "If" and thats a BIG "IF" I fire a warning shot it's going to be a flare. I just hope I'm not too nervous and pull the wrong trigger and let off the 00 buck.
You can never prepare yourself for the result of taking another humans life. What you can do is work to avoid being put into that situation in the first place. Know your weapon, how it fires, how to load it, how to clear it and how to take it apart and clean it. Above all BE SAFE lock your weapons in a safe and teach your kids to respect guns and stay away from them and call an adult when they see one. Treat every weapon you see or handle as loaded and ready. Never brandish or point a weapon you are not ready to fire.
In conclusion, I think advertising to your neighbors that you have weapons is a bad idea. For an example, you tell your buddy, he's a great guy, now he tells his wife, she's really nice too, the wife tells her sister who is also a nice person, the sister tells her daughter who does meth. Now the daughter that does meth tells her tweeker boyfriend where they can score some guns. Bad news. Keep it low key.
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Sure, I'm disagreeing with a double barrel shotgun.
Cylinder bore is in some areas illegal. Go figure. Here or not, I have no idea, and it's a gigantic quagmire of all sorts of competing laws. Ultimately you just can't keep up with the legal whatever--like, I don't know, if the serial number is a prime, it's a FELONY to own it.
Steel shot loses gas faster than lead(which is why a lot of hunters hate it.) But it's sensible in a neighborhood. Perhaps responsible.
Look, I don't want to portray myself as any sort of Xick waving whatever or any of that, but I've seen a lot of this, not only on a "prep table" but have worked in law enforcement in a pretty rough places, and have been trained by some pretty quality folks, with names you'd know. I'm just not any of that anyway. Basically, I'm a tall, skinny, humanitarian liberal. Whatever. It's all SO simple. What it comes down to isn't fire arms, or caliber, or this or that. I'll assure you that there's people with a stick that are completely capable of keeping their house safe. It's all about attitude, and personal responsibility--and that's the issue. If you take it seriously, well, there you go. You'll protect yourself, and your family. There's your security. If you don't-- a firearm is probably a 50-50 play in the whole thing, and for most, just Xick waving.
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JWFITZ, you still haven't given a reason for being against a double barrel shotgun. All I hear is talk about duck guns and autoloaders and parallex built into the barrels and all that stuff. The double barrel is easy to use and just fine for close range shooting in the dark.
I was trying to be diplomatic in my previous response, but a cylinder bore is a shotgun that has no choke. Since shotguns usually come with a choke (full choke, etc.) cylinder bore is sometimes referred to as a "sawed-off shotgun" (where the choke has been sawn off), which is illegal if the barrel is under 18". This is because, according to cop thinking, it can be more easily hidden under a coat but to the best of my knowledge, a cylinder bore with an 18+" barrel is legal and it wiil scatter the shot as I had mentioned previously.
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I guess I haven't given any reasons that anybody understands. That's Ok. That's simply a lack of familiarity, and my fault. I'm prone to lingoism and I'm sure if I asked you to tie flying bowline on the after-leading hawser to the thwartships knights-head you'd probably think I was talking out of my arse as well. But, some would know exactly what I was talking about, and wouldn't think that pretentious in the slightest.
Ultimately, I believe, all of this is a practical issue. No need to get too bent out of shape if someone disagrees.
As well, I understand what a cylinder bore is. And, as well understand there are specific prohibitions to it. In Hawaii, or not, I have not an idea, especially as the law here is in flux and unconstitutional, but personally I don't want to spend the next 20 years of my life making that claim. I expect I'd evade the issue completely and stick within what's clearly legal.
Argument I from my perspective:
Two barrels(rounds) that point off of dead center 3 degrees or so- vs one barrel with 5 rounds that points dead on, and that you can feed from the bottom at whatever rate you're personally capable of. You can pick or choose how you will. I suppose it's all a matter or preference. And, I'm not at all interested in a pissing match about what's the best firearm of choice for someone who'd not ever handled one at all. The answer, of course, for that, is--none of the above.
Argument II from my perspective:
A quality DBBL shotgun( not some old piece of crap made by Sears with two barrels) will cost you 5 to 10 times the same amount of money of a modern new pump or autoloader. Especially one with ejectors and not extractors. Last time I looked, which was a long time ago, a REMINGTON 870 EXPRESS was about a 300 dollar gun. A quality Italian double or a vintage American one like a Parker was about a 2500 dollar purchase.
I have no interest in being contentious about any of this. Go fire away at a piece of cardboard at 30 feet and tell us what you find out.
Honestly, I don't want this to be combative or any of that. At all, or whatever. It serves none of us. In the same way I might offer advise on how to use a particular tablesaw, fine. I'm pretty familiar with both tablesaws and these. Beyond that, well, not so interested.
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People who buy guns for "home defence" in Hawaii must relish the thought of doing more jail time than the burglar.
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Unless you compost your burglers, LOL!
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1. The best weapon for home defense is that which you are comfortable wielding and can hit what you aim at, multiple times. I don't care if it's a shotgun, 9mm, or .22, only utilize that which you can hit the person with in a variety of situations.
2. For home defense shotguns, that which you can handle and hit what you want AND reload FAST is the best gun for you. I don't care if it is 20 gauge, 12 gauge, double barrel, or whatever.
3. As someone said, practice, practice, practice and take safety courses and shooting lessons. If you choose to wield such a decisive tool, the mature thing to do is know how to use it safely and highly effectively.
4. Clean your guns. Regularly.
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The best weapon for home defence is an alarm system, locked doors and windows, and maybe a big dog.
Invite a gun into your house and chances are it won't be used the way you imagined.
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