Owner Builder - Electric/Plumbing fight

[Wao nahele kane]

Bob, The connection to the utility grid? Connections directly to the power lines, cable, phone and or to the water supply are typically done by the utility. I would allow anything that occurs within the boundaries of the property to be done by the OB with the exception of a utility line that is directly connected without junction to the utility main in question. This should be limited by virtue of only a few things. A septic system should be done by licensed contractors only; however, a cesspool would be well within the ability of the OB and should be acceptable.
Deep well drilling should not be allowed but through licensed contractors only.
With those 2 restrictions I would also add licensed engineering approval requirements on all occupied structure plans even for the OB situation. I would not include licensed Architect requirements for S.F. structures.
So, I would say number 4 with aforementioned restrictions as long as the connection preformed is limited to the end of the first branch junction from the main utility and on the OB’s property.

The above violates no property rights and observes all potential safety issues. I believe Geo thermal power plants etc will not fall under the OB s.f. structure situation and by default not allowed under the current statutes regardless.

The reasoning behind the aforementioned OB self performed restrictions are as follows.

The structural engineering is because the Federal government has mandated that all states need to adopt uniform building codes and the states have been leaning on the IBC codes.
Those codes require seismic, wind and snow requirements that are fairly complex with regard to intellectual comprehensions and they provide a given safety level for present and future occupants of a structure that is not unreasonable to call for. Thus, a structural engineer is required to verify a S.F. home plans structural safety requirements.

The septic system licensed contractor is to insure that this potential community health hazard system is done properly and the licensed contractor would be ultimately responsible for a failure of this system. Because a septic system is more complex with regard to methane gas entrapment and handling it is not something that should be allowed to be preformed by the OB. On the other hand… the common cesspool is a fairly foolproof system and as long as the state allows these not so clean systems to be used, there’s really nothing an OB can do to screw a cesspool up, especially if the cesspool hole and cover are inspected by the health district inspector to ensure they are present and within the code requirements.

The reasoning for the deep well drilling licensed contractor should be self apparent on a magma infested island... there are other good reasons for this requirement and they revolve around water quality and other safety related issues.


E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.

[Bob Orts]

Kane you're confusing the heck out of me.

If the septic system has to be inspected, like all other aspects, why can't the O/B do it themselves? If its argued that it shouldn't be required for electrical work, its the same argument for septic. But you’re saying it’s all right for one piece but not all right for another. Isn’t that what government said for plumbing and electric? All you did is replace the use of licensed electrician or plumber with licensed septic contractor.

When plans are submitted to the County, what do they look for on those plans? If all they are doing is checking to make sure it meets zoning requirements and that the stamp is on it, I would agree the plans need the stamp. But if they are looking to make sure the plans meet building codes and is structurally sound, we're right back to the argument of why does an O/B need a stamp if the examiners are checking it for compliance? If the plan does not meet code it’s the exact same thing as the electric/plumbing not meeting code.

The crux of your argument is that an O/B should be able to perform their own work so long as it meets codes and passes inspection. So if the plans and septic pass inspections, there should be no reason to use a licensed person for those items according to your argument.

[Wao nahele kane]

Sorry Bob,
Construction, land rights and community safety issues are a very complex thing and not simply black and white. What you have cited was not the crux of my argument.

The crux of the argument is community safety related in conjunction with meeting the codes in personal safety standards and those things that are within the means of the average individual vs. those things which require a certain level of responsibility beyond the average OB's higher education (not a technical education), insurance and liability factors. There are a few tests involved in determining these factors, not just one or two.

Methane gas control in a closed septic system within a drain field is not outside community related safety issues on the other hand a cesspool does not produce enough methane gas buildup to induce a methane explosion. Cesspools and septic systems are not the same.

The structural engineering requirements (higher education issue and not merely a technical education like a plumber or electrician) are already in place and not allowed to be done by the OB at this time, nor would any argument against the use of a structural engineer hold merit. The building department acts as a secondary redundant safety check on structural engineering plan aspects as well looks for all the other elements within the plan to make sure it meets other codes... most all building departments have done things this way and always will. We'll never get that element out of the equation as the structural engineers approval is also a liability commitment on behalf of the engineer. Structural engineers do not address anything but structural integrity related issues only. This is similar to a doctor signing you off on a health check-up. The structural engineering is the single most important element in a building; it always has been and always will be. It’s the very thing that first began building departments and codes.
Also remember, a structural engineer is not a licensed contractor and the statutes you cited were referencing licensed contractors, not licensed structural engineers or licensed Architects. The aspect of the Structural Engineer and the Architect are under another portion of the code and the OB in Hawaii has always been required to use either the Architect or the Engineer depending on the scope of the project.

E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.

[Bob Orts]

quote:

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Originally posted by Wao nahele kane

A septic system should be done by licensed contractors only; however, a cesspool would be well within the ability of the OB and should be acceptable.

The septic system licensed contractor is to insure that this potential community health hazard system is done properly and the licensed contractor would be ultimately responsible for a failure of this system. Because a septic system is more complex with regard to methane gas entrapment and handling it is not something that should be allowed to be preformed by the OB.

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Thanks for the explanation.

But when the system is installed, it's inspected to ensure it meets all applicable codes and safety standards. If it passes inspection it should meet codes regardless who installed it. If it fails, the contractor or the O/B need to fix the problem. The inspection determines if it is or isn't approved. Who installed it has no bearing on what the inspection should encompass and it has no bearing on responsibility should something go wrong.

I don’t understand how you can argue against requirements to use a license contractor for some trades yet in the same breath argue for protectionism and requirement to use another trade. If it's not installed to codes and standards, and it fails inspection, it fails. If it passes inspection, it passes. If the O/B install a septic system to all applicable codes and health standards, and it passes inspection, obviously it's not that complicated and they should have the right to do it themselves.

You have essentially created protectionism for the licensed septic contractor just like the protectionism you argue against for the electric/plumbing trade. If the codes and inspection is to be the final judge of quality and approval for all other aspects of building a residential building, why are you wanting government protection of the licensed septic contractors?

[Wao nahele kane]

The reason for this is related to those things that rise to a level of community safety threats vs. those things that don't rise to such a threat level. Methane in a septic system rises to a public safety issue and if it fails, it could lead to a community issue. If you want to omit it... feel free, I'm just pointing out a potential legal issue that could nip the state or the county in the butt.
These systems can and do explode if not built correctly and may spray infectious materials for long distances… Therein lays the final issue when they fail.

I've no doubt most people can do a septic system properly, no argument or problem there
The question remains... when the OB builds one and if it explodes and makes many people sick around the vicinity... who's to blame?
Bob... We're basically talking about making an infectious bomb if built wrong.
It's also important to note that the septic system designer is a licensed engineer, it's not a technical education or an OJT related thing. The licensed septic system contractors carry a great deal of potential liability on their shoulders.

http://inspectapedia.com/septic/SepticMethane.htm

Think of it this way; would you want your neighbor to be allowed to build a micro nuclear reactor at his or her house?
You may feel safe if your neighbor builds their own septic system and I might too, but if you and I end up dead because our neighbor John Doe built an approved and inspected septic system that exploded and killed us. What's the community going to think in the aftermath? Yes, the chances are slim but such things have happened in the past and will more than likely happen again. What if the inspector signs off the septic system walks away and the methane manifolds separate when buried? John doe may not notice or may notice and think... "who cares; burie the damn thing and I'm done". John Doe does not realize the dangers of what he just did... the licensed contractor is liable and knows damn good and well what the separation might mean. Who are you going to trust more in this scenario, the licensed contractor or John Doe?


E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.

[Wao nahele kane]

This is a good place to explore other like type dangers that could rise to a community threat when considering construction related projects.
I personally can't think of anything other than the things I have already cited that can lead to a potentially large scale community safety threat. Leaking plumbing pipes are confined to the home and or the immediate premises. A fire due to wiring is by default protected through set backs and other house shell related codes. A propane tank is built and licensed by federal standards and a hook up to a propane tank that may leak would be hard pressed to blow up the tank. These fittings often leak through age alone. So, I don't see an OB problem there.

The OB not permitted projects I have cited are things that are cited by other States... I didn't just pull them out of a hat. California does not allow deep well drilling by the OB, Washington does not allow Septic systems to be built by the OB.

E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.

[Obie]

Exploding septics ? I don't think I have ever heard of that other than when someone has built a fire on top of their tank.
The danger from methane is mainly from asphyxiation when a tank caves in and someone falls into the tank or enters the tank to work on it.And cesspools most definitely create as much methane as a septic tank.

Having improperly designed or installed DWV systems would be a hazard by allowing methane to enter the home.

[Wao nahele kane]

Obie,
Regardless of what failure occurs more often than the other, the facts remains with regard to explosive possibilities.
You may have not heard of septic tank explosions but rest assured they can explode and have killed people and it doesn't only occur when a fire is built above the tank (theres a phrase "exploding septic tank" and sometimes used descriptively to characterize bad situations, it was not coined from thin air). As per a cesspool and methane are concerned, a cesspool is completely buried if installed properly, some septic system components are not buried. This means that the methane entering the air above the cesspool is minimal relative to a septic system and the chances of creating combustion from a buried cesspool are near zero. This is not necessarily true when considering septic tanks and septic systems that have been built improperly or have been broken in some mannersim.
The complexities involve in fabricating a septic system vs a cesspool are self evident and the chances of a an OB messing up a cesspool are about zero compared to a septic system.

"Having improperly designed or installed DWV systems would be a hazard by allowing methane to enter the home."
Now we're talking about an inspector who sees a stack test preformed and who inspects the design as well as the as done installed system. If it passes the stack test and the visual content inspection, it's foolproof, unless an idiot puts siding nails or sheetrock screws into the waste-lines. Here again we're talking about a hazard limited to the occupants.

Anyhow I don't want to change the thread here, we can talk crapper systems on another thread.
E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.

[Bob Orts]

I don't know what to say [:0]

So this is not about some constitutional over stepping of government powers to require license electrical and plumbing contractors, and it's not that the if work meets inspection and adherence to codes, that's what should be allowed; it’s about getting protectionism for the licensed septic installers. Your explanation is government explanation except you exchanged electric/plumbing for septic systems. But everything in your explanation is what you argue against for those other trades especially since if a constitutional issue arises for electric and plumbing, it’s the same constitutional issue for septic systems.

Let’s face reality, does it matter who does the installation so long as it meets codes and passes inspection? That was the justification offered to eliminate the O/B’s need to use only licensed electric and plumbing contractors. Does license septic contractors always do it right and never failed an inspection? If an O/B is a total idiot and installs his own septic system and it turns out to be the exact identical system the licensed septic contractor would install, And it meets all health and building codes, why shouldn't it be accepted? What if the licensed septic installer makes a mistake and does a crap job? Because he's a "licensed septic contractor" is it not inspected?

Either the O/B is allowed to do the work themselves and if it passes inspection its good, or we throw out the entire O/B exemption and they have to use licensed contractors for all work. But if this whole use of any licensed contractor for some trades is some constitutional rights violation, it applies just as much to septic!

[Obie]

You are the one who started ranting about septic systems.

The saying "exploding septic tank" is just that, a saying.Much like saying "when pigs fly".It doesn't offer any proof that a septic tank has ever exploded.

I am sorry but you are totally wrong about cesspools and methane.

To add to your list though,many areas require gas piping licenses now.This is in addition to being a journeyman or master plumber.