01-02-2011, 01:51 PM
quote:Carol,
Originally posted by csgray
So now wikipedia, where anyone can post anything they want as truth, is a valid source for legal definitions? We are supposed to accept that if wikipedia says there is no relation between racial/ethnic jokes and racism, then it must be true?
Racism is in the eye of the beholder, and so is humor, but vicious racial/ethnic/religious humor have been used to dehumanize various people as part of a system of justification for treating those people as deserving of discrimination, or in the case of Nazi Germany, outright extermination, for centuries. During the lead up to the Holocaust "jokes" about Jewish people that emphasized a belief in their lesser status as human beings, and reinforced vicious negative stereotypes, were standard fare at nightclubs and cabarets. During the period between Reconstruction and the Civil Rights era ugly "jokes" about African Americans were also standard fare for entertainment. The minstrel show was one of the most popular forms of entertainment for the working classes. These "jokes" are a tool to reinforce, and make publicly acceptable, a mindset that holds that some people are subhuman and deserving of an unequal place in society because of their race, religion, ethnicity, class or income status, or sexual orientation. If you cannot see how these "jokes" and racism, or other bigotry, are related, in spite of what wikipedia says, then you are being willfully blind to how hate is encouraged and spread in a community. "Jokes" like this are a way to spread a world view, sharing these "jokes" with the next generation while they are young and impressionable is a way to encourage them to see the world through the same perspective as the "joke" teller. Instead of saying outright that you think these groups of people are less human than your tribal group, you just make jokes about shooting them, and then hide behind the "it's just a joke, don't you have a sense of humor?" screen.
When I was growing up I lived in community which still had a lot of people who had been very active in the KKK in the 30s and 40s, including people like Scout leaders, ministers, and teachers. The "jokes" I heard people who had leadership roles in my 4-H group tell were routinely directed towards African Americans in the most derogatory terms possible, and were absolutely related to the underlying racism of these people. Those jokes were used to pass on attitudes about African Americans to the next generation; in a community where there were only two African American families it was an easy way to spread hate and derision for people who were virtually unknown to the kids hearing the "jokes". This was probably not a conscious act of propaganda, but it was an act of initiation into a mind set all the same.
I didn't read the original thread that prompted this one until all the debate started to rage, and I probably would not have started a whole new thread about it, but as much as I personally dislike feeding the trolls, I also probably would not have let it pass without expressing my discomfort with what I see as racism hiding behind humor. I was raised to believe that ignoring such things helps grease the slippery slope which has discrimination, lynchings, and genocide waiting at the bottom. Those things all happen when good people look away, and allow other human beings to be objectified as less than fully human, for long enough that treating others in inhumane ways becomes socially acceptable as long as they they belong to one of the "lesser" groups.
Carol
You are correct that I should not have used Wikipedia when I meant the dictionary. Here I pasted them here for you:
First I want to state there is a HUGE difference between the word racial and racism. Unfortunately many people use the two words interchangeably. Here are the definitions as I found them on http://dictionary.reference.com:
Racial:
1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of one race or the races of humankind.
2. arising, occurring, or existing because of differences between races or racial attitudes: racial conflict; racial motivations.
and now Racism:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
So as you can see your statement: "Racism is in the eye of the beholder...." is completely ridiculous. By your reasoning I can call you a racist or a child molestor and I don't even know you. You really just proved my point for me. This is exactly why we need to understand the words that we use. Otherwise Carol I could just call you a racist or a child molestor and anything else I feel like and there would be no words called Libel, Slander and Defamation of Character. And in order for Mauka and you and anyone else to TRUTHFULLY call The Lack a racist you must have proof of hate. And you can't use the joke as proof because by definition the joke is not racism.
In order for there to be Libel and Slander there has to be a strict definition of these words. I would suggest you look up Libel and Defamation of Character and you'll see that is exactly what Mauka and anyone else who called The Lack a racist is doing. The last time I looked Libel and Defamation are against the law. And racism is defined by the hate of a race. So like I said, without proof of hate there is no racism. So please don't try to re-write the english language just to try and make a point. We have definitions for a reason.
Based on what you say then anyone who tells a racial (ethnic) joke is a racist. That is also ridiculous as you cannot tell me that you have never told and ethnic joke ever in your entire life. So by your own definition you are a racist. See how silly what you are saying is?
Let me also say that telling jokes about Jews did not cause them to be killed. Did you really just try and relate telling jokes caused Genocide? I hope that you didn't just try and say that. I will assume that I am not reading that correctly. What I am saying is that a racist can tell racial jokes. It still doesn't make the joke racist. Only the hate and propagation of that hate is racism. Not the joke itself. So let me ask you a question. If a racist tells a racial joke isn't he really just telling the truth as he sees it? Then it was not meant to be funny and is not a joke. So do you have some proof of The Lack hating a race?
Let's face it, unless we all use the proper words in the correct way we can turn a conversation into any way we want. But I know you wouldn't want to use a word incorrectly, would you? Once the words racist, racism, ethnic and racial are used as they are defined and meant to be then we can all be on the same page. So let's just all look the words up in the dictionary and use them as they were meant to be. That way we all know that if we call someone a racist we need to have proof of that persons hatred towards a race. All jokes aside. JMHO
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