10-02-2011, 07:03 AM
First off I want to state up front that even if I forget to qualify it in some places, when referring to "hunters" below I don't mean every hunter - I know a lot of hunters who are responsible and environmentalists. But there is a very vocal and politically powerful group who are opposed to any sort of feral animal control in native forests (while, ironically, opposing the bill in the legislature this year to lift seasons and bag limits on them).
You should definitely be aware that kipa is speaking from the hunters' point of view, and is ignorant of or deliberately avoiding the other issues. Among them:
1) He(?) says that "there are hundreds of thousands of mamane trees..." In a sense this is true, but the amount of seed set each year depends a lot on the weather. In a drought like we've had the last few years, they produce very few and the palila suffer.
2) "I can understand that over the next 100 years or so that with no new mamane tree seedlings that future populations could be affected..." The mamane have had almost no reproduction due to the sheep and goats for 200 years already. 90% of the mamane forest is already gone. The little strip on the west side of Mauna Kea, and an area in the Hualalai-Mauna Loa saddle, are all that's really left of high-quality mamane-naio forest. And even if that were not the case - the hunters (and DOFAW) have been fighting the order to eradicate the sheep for 30 years already. I have no doubt they're willing to keep it up for 100 years.
3) There is a feedback effect as the forest thins. Because it doesn't get much rain, it's dependent on fog for water, and shade to reduce evaporation. As trees die out, with none to replace them, there are fewer trees to catch fog, and less shade on the ground. So the whole area dries out and the trees that are left are more vulnerable to drought.
4) The palila is not historically restricted to this area. It used to occur all over the island, and in fact this high-elevation forest may not even be very good for them. It's just that it's all that's left, because we've spent the last 200 years (well, 1,000 really) steadily pushing them back.
I actually agree. But, do you think that it's unreasonable to protect the few areas that are left intact, in order to save Hawaii's natural heritage? Because some of the hunters do. The Kohala Forest Reserve is ~23,000 acres. There is one 10-acre patch with rare plants that's fenced to keep out pigs, but evidently even 10 acres is too much, because it's been repeatedly vandalized. When it was being constructed and nearly done, some people cut it at every second post, rolled the fencing back, and tied it with wire. The last time, a year ago, they pulled out 15 pigs from this tiny area, and during the time they were in there, they had dug up a large portion of the site.
That's the kind of attitude that has to be dealt with.
The pigs and the deer would still be a problem. Killing off the upper forests causes huge amounts of erosion. The result is more runoff and flooding during heavy rains, and less streamflow when it's drier. That affects you and your garden too. Everyone needs to recognize how they are connected to everything around them; there's no way to insulate yourself, even with a fence.
quote:
Originally posted by KathyH
thanks so much for explaining what is making people mad regarding the sheep. Thank you for educating me on this. I'm surprised I never heard someone talk about the sheep in all this time -- see, there is always a lot to learn.
I don't know what the counter-argument would be, but on the face of your argument I would support your position. Not that I have any power.
You should definitely be aware that kipa is speaking from the hunters' point of view, and is ignorant of or deliberately avoiding the other issues. Among them:
1) He(?) says that "there are hundreds of thousands of mamane trees..." In a sense this is true, but the amount of seed set each year depends a lot on the weather. In a drought like we've had the last few years, they produce very few and the palila suffer.
2) "I can understand that over the next 100 years or so that with no new mamane tree seedlings that future populations could be affected..." The mamane have had almost no reproduction due to the sheep and goats for 200 years already. 90% of the mamane forest is already gone. The little strip on the west side of Mauna Kea, and an area in the Hualalai-Mauna Loa saddle, are all that's really left of high-quality mamane-naio forest. And even if that were not the case - the hunters (and DOFAW) have been fighting the order to eradicate the sheep for 30 years already. I have no doubt they're willing to keep it up for 100 years.
3) There is a feedback effect as the forest thins. Because it doesn't get much rain, it's dependent on fog for water, and shade to reduce evaporation. As trees die out, with none to replace them, there are fewer trees to catch fog, and less shade on the ground. So the whole area dries out and the trees that are left are more vulnerable to drought.
4) The palila is not historically restricted to this area. It used to occur all over the island, and in fact this high-elevation forest may not even be very good for them. It's just that it's all that's left, because we've spent the last 200 years (well, 1,000 really) steadily pushing them back.
quote:
I am also not one of those environmentalists who is fervent about making the world bend to the task of saving one bird. Maybe I should be, but I don't feel that way. I feel that we as humans should stop reckless actions that extinguish species, but on the other hand, species disappear all the time as part of evolution.
I actually agree. But, do you think that it's unreasonable to protect the few areas that are left intact, in order to save Hawaii's natural heritage? Because some of the hunters do. The Kohala Forest Reserve is ~23,000 acres. There is one 10-acre patch with rare plants that's fenced to keep out pigs, but evidently even 10 acres is too much, because it's been repeatedly vandalized. When it was being constructed and nearly done, some people cut it at every second post, rolled the fencing back, and tied it with wire. The last time, a year ago, they pulled out 15 pigs from this tiny area, and during the time they were in there, they had dug up a large portion of the site.
That's the kind of attitude that has to be dealt with.
quote:
Rampantly invasive species do scare me. As I said, the pigs are a big issue. If only the pigs could be up in the hunting preserves and not destroying food gardens. If the deer will stay out of my garden, I have nothing against them. I'm trying to raise food too.
The pigs and the deer would still be a problem. Killing off the upper forests causes huge amounts of erosion. The result is more runoff and flooding during heavy rains, and less streamflow when it's drier. That affects you and your garden too. Everyone needs to recognize how they are connected to everything around them; there's no way to insulate yourself, even with a fence.