10-04-2011, 10:37 AM
freestate- you said "I don't understand how being here for generations affects the ecological concept the Axis Deer issue brings to light.
People are trying to change the argument to sheep, or make it a Native Hawaiian issue. Straw man arguments.
And to say that Hawaii's ecosystem isn't damaged from invasive species already is not living in reality. Ask a biologist working on the Big Island how healthy the island's ecosystem is. Just because parts look pretty doesn't make it a healthy ecosystem overall."
Exactly my point! These may seem like straw man arguments to you, but they are actually very similar to the topic of interest due to people with extreme beliefs such as you; you take the same approach to destroy anything you "feel" doesn't belong. What I am trying to say is that what you see as "damaged" is actually the result of generations of people living here, trying to get by, and leaving their mark. I think another name for that is culture. Historically, introducing animals such as sheep and pigs was a necessity for survival. I have ancestors who subsisted purely on hunting animals and gathering on the big island, it was their livelihood. Today I still view these animals not only as a valuable food resource, but also as a tradition.
What makes you think that the right thing to do is to come here and kill off animals such as the sheep to try to restore the land to its natural state? So you see your argument is to restore the ecosystem to it's natural state at the expense of the resource of animals, as well as our culture. I do not agree with this. Does it even seem feasible to you to restore the Island to a 100% native ecosystem? I don't think so. That is what I mean when I say you are anti-Hawaii, you come here wanting to change everything back to how it was before people and animals where here, nothing but native plants and birds (you don't fit into this native picture either). For some reason you feel that this is the right thing to do, and people that have been living here for generations are wrong in wanting to keep a part of their culture because apparently they have already damaged the land too much.
I feel that there are generally 3 options in taking action towards these issues:
1) Do nothing and let the animals run wild
2) Encourage a balanced hybrid ecosystem between native and non-native animals by reducing animal numbers when needed (this can be achieved through no limit hunting seasons. One man single-handedly eradicated all of the goats off of niihau over the course of 2 years without modern technology, so don't tell me hunting is an ineffective control method)
3) Completely kill off everything non-native, and do nothing, allowing for even worse threats to fill the void
So you see this is how the sheep issue as well as the axis deer issue are linked, the government as well as yourself approaches both issues in the same way with option 3. I however support option 2, we shouldn't let any single native or non-native group dominate over the other but achieve a balance between both of them.
oink- I am glad you enjoyed the pics. It really is an eye opener when you are fed all of this information about the sheep killing off the mamane trees and their supposed inability to produce seeds now, but a short hike on the mountain will reveal literally hunreds of thousands of trees each producing seeds.
People are trying to change the argument to sheep, or make it a Native Hawaiian issue. Straw man arguments.
And to say that Hawaii's ecosystem isn't damaged from invasive species already is not living in reality. Ask a biologist working on the Big Island how healthy the island's ecosystem is. Just because parts look pretty doesn't make it a healthy ecosystem overall."
Exactly my point! These may seem like straw man arguments to you, but they are actually very similar to the topic of interest due to people with extreme beliefs such as you; you take the same approach to destroy anything you "feel" doesn't belong. What I am trying to say is that what you see as "damaged" is actually the result of generations of people living here, trying to get by, and leaving their mark. I think another name for that is culture. Historically, introducing animals such as sheep and pigs was a necessity for survival. I have ancestors who subsisted purely on hunting animals and gathering on the big island, it was their livelihood. Today I still view these animals not only as a valuable food resource, but also as a tradition.
What makes you think that the right thing to do is to come here and kill off animals such as the sheep to try to restore the land to its natural state? So you see your argument is to restore the ecosystem to it's natural state at the expense of the resource of animals, as well as our culture. I do not agree with this. Does it even seem feasible to you to restore the Island to a 100% native ecosystem? I don't think so. That is what I mean when I say you are anti-Hawaii, you come here wanting to change everything back to how it was before people and animals where here, nothing but native plants and birds (you don't fit into this native picture either). For some reason you feel that this is the right thing to do, and people that have been living here for generations are wrong in wanting to keep a part of their culture because apparently they have already damaged the land too much.
I feel that there are generally 3 options in taking action towards these issues:
1) Do nothing and let the animals run wild
2) Encourage a balanced hybrid ecosystem between native and non-native animals by reducing animal numbers when needed (this can be achieved through no limit hunting seasons. One man single-handedly eradicated all of the goats off of niihau over the course of 2 years without modern technology, so don't tell me hunting is an ineffective control method)
3) Completely kill off everything non-native, and do nothing, allowing for even worse threats to fill the void
So you see this is how the sheep issue as well as the axis deer issue are linked, the government as well as yourself approaches both issues in the same way with option 3. I however support option 2, we shouldn't let any single native or non-native group dominate over the other but achieve a balance between both of them.
oink- I am glad you enjoyed the pics. It really is an eye opener when you are fed all of this information about the sheep killing off the mamane trees and their supposed inability to produce seeds now, but a short hike on the mountain will reveal literally hunreds of thousands of trees each producing seeds.