12-27-2014, 04:33 AM
Agreed, I've heard Demetrius sing, Iz made me think of him. Both their voices are like musical instruments in perfect tune. What talent!
In regard to "cultural styles" of communication and the thread at hand, as a "Westerner" I love a good debate and appreciate what can come out of it. But that's MY cultural bias. After all, I grew up watching lawyer shows; we had a debate club at school; I've watched numerous political debates on TV, and yes, I've argued with my redneck uncle at Thanksgiving dinner before (when I was young and stupid, lol). Call it “debate", call it "the dialectic", this style of communication permeates the world I grew up in. My culture has conditioned me to communicate this way.
Why might my culture be this way? Lots of reasons, of course. But one big one comes compliments of the Greeks who put truth at the top of the hierarchy of values (Robert Pirsig), and created the dialectic to get to the truth. Even today the ghost of Socrates permeates how we communicate, make decisions, solve problems, etc. (And without that commitment to the truth, it's hard to imagine the West ever inventing science.)
In Japan on the other hand, the corresponding value is not truth but harmony, thanks to Confucian-style collectivism. It’s not that the Japanese don’t value the truth. But when truth and harmony collide, sometimes the truth gets swept under the rug so someone can save face. (Then they generally work things out behind the scenes.) I’m not making a value judgment here; each culture has its strengths and weaknesses. It is what it is.
I am also NOT an expert on Hawaiian culture so I can't speak for our host culture (please see opihikao for all things Hawaiian). But speaking in generalities, some cultures (like Japan) do NOT value the written word as much as we Americans do, nor are they comfortable with public debate. Words on a piece of paper don't carry much weight in their culture; it's all about human relationships, respect, duty, obligation, HARMONY, all dictated by cultural protocol. The freedom to explore ideas becomes a barometer of the strength of the relationship.
No surprise then that such a culture wouldn't value lawyer-like wordsmiths who can skillfully dissect others’ words (while missing their intent?) and logically try to argue an opponent into a corner, sometimes in an insulting way. Some cultures not only value humility, they see it as a strength and a sign of wisdom. ("The superior man is modest his speech but exceeds in his actions"--Confucius) They often interpret (rightfully or not) skillful rhetoric as an attempt to hide a weakness.
Again, I'm not speaking for our host culture. But these are the kinds of communication gaps that hinder cross-cultural communication, and it highlights the limitations of an online forum like this. If anything, I would also venture to say that an online forum like punaweb favors a culture like ours, comfortable with public debate via the written word, where trust is built on the logical/rational merit of one’s words and ideas, and nothing else.
And yes indeed ironyak, some cultures value “listening” over talking, and defer to their elders and teachers on matters of importance. (Again, like all things it can be a strength or a weakness.) But I think it’s more than just listening; some cultures will listen to what you have to say, but not based on the merit of your debating skill, more on how you say it. They will listen to you after you have earned their respect, and a relationship has been established.
(My boilerplate disclaimer on cultural values: just because a culture values something, doesn't necessarily mean they practice what they preach. Western culture values truth but we have lots of liars in the West. We just believe in principle that “telling the truth” is a good thing.) And just because the Japanese value harmony doesn’t mean they are all harmonious; if true harmony can not be achieved, they fake it really well.)
So I can't help but think that before jumping into debate mode, it might be more meaningful and productive to build a human relationship, preferably in the flesh, earn each other’s respect, and figure out a way to learn from each other.
See, I went and talked too much...damn verbose Westerner that I am! Please forgive the long post...it’s the holidays!
In regard to "cultural styles" of communication and the thread at hand, as a "Westerner" I love a good debate and appreciate what can come out of it. But that's MY cultural bias. After all, I grew up watching lawyer shows; we had a debate club at school; I've watched numerous political debates on TV, and yes, I've argued with my redneck uncle at Thanksgiving dinner before (when I was young and stupid, lol). Call it “debate", call it "the dialectic", this style of communication permeates the world I grew up in. My culture has conditioned me to communicate this way.
Why might my culture be this way? Lots of reasons, of course. But one big one comes compliments of the Greeks who put truth at the top of the hierarchy of values (Robert Pirsig), and created the dialectic to get to the truth. Even today the ghost of Socrates permeates how we communicate, make decisions, solve problems, etc. (And without that commitment to the truth, it's hard to imagine the West ever inventing science.)
In Japan on the other hand, the corresponding value is not truth but harmony, thanks to Confucian-style collectivism. It’s not that the Japanese don’t value the truth. But when truth and harmony collide, sometimes the truth gets swept under the rug so someone can save face. (Then they generally work things out behind the scenes.) I’m not making a value judgment here; each culture has its strengths and weaknesses. It is what it is.
I am also NOT an expert on Hawaiian culture so I can't speak for our host culture (please see opihikao for all things Hawaiian). But speaking in generalities, some cultures (like Japan) do NOT value the written word as much as we Americans do, nor are they comfortable with public debate. Words on a piece of paper don't carry much weight in their culture; it's all about human relationships, respect, duty, obligation, HARMONY, all dictated by cultural protocol. The freedom to explore ideas becomes a barometer of the strength of the relationship.
No surprise then that such a culture wouldn't value lawyer-like wordsmiths who can skillfully dissect others’ words (while missing their intent?) and logically try to argue an opponent into a corner, sometimes in an insulting way. Some cultures not only value humility, they see it as a strength and a sign of wisdom. ("The superior man is modest his speech but exceeds in his actions"--Confucius) They often interpret (rightfully or not) skillful rhetoric as an attempt to hide a weakness.
Again, I'm not speaking for our host culture. But these are the kinds of communication gaps that hinder cross-cultural communication, and it highlights the limitations of an online forum like this. If anything, I would also venture to say that an online forum like punaweb favors a culture like ours, comfortable with public debate via the written word, where trust is built on the logical/rational merit of one’s words and ideas, and nothing else.
And yes indeed ironyak, some cultures value “listening” over talking, and defer to their elders and teachers on matters of importance. (Again, like all things it can be a strength or a weakness.) But I think it’s more than just listening; some cultures will listen to what you have to say, but not based on the merit of your debating skill, more on how you say it. They will listen to you after you have earned their respect, and a relationship has been established.
(My boilerplate disclaimer on cultural values: just because a culture values something, doesn't necessarily mean they practice what they preach. Western culture values truth but we have lots of liars in the West. We just believe in principle that “telling the truth” is a good thing.) And just because the Japanese value harmony doesn’t mean they are all harmonious; if true harmony can not be achieved, they fake it really well.)
So I can't help but think that before jumping into debate mode, it might be more meaningful and productive to build a human relationship, preferably in the flesh, earn each other’s respect, and figure out a way to learn from each other.
See, I went and talked too much...damn verbose Westerner that I am! Please forgive the long post...it’s the holidays!
Tim
A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions--Confucius
A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions--Confucius