04-16-2015, 02:41 AM
Opihikao,
I agree that the issue is divisive to some extreme. Both sides argue past each other and the end result is deepened entrenchment on each side, not simply on Punaweb but in daily life interactions. This is not so disheartening to me as I find "haoles go home" and "you worship dirt" both to be legitimate points of view.
I must preface my remarks with the admission that I am a complete spiritual flunky. I have no idea what spiritual means and many have attempted to explain it to me over the years, to no avail...
So when you mention mana, to me it is a _belief_ in mana, not some "given" truth. Embedding the supernatural with great power is problematic to me since it ends up being used as something of a trump card that grinds discussion to a halt. Even the chanting appears to be a similar trump card, as if there is some Truth in the chant that is beyond any human argument.
On one hand, it is often mentioned that the protest is about something more than the TMT (sovereignty?) and then when the question about what blocking the TMT has to do with the larger issue, the mana card is slapped down as a perfectly legitimate reason that blocking the TMT makes sense. The logic just doesn't hang together.
Though I personally believe that the observatories _add_ to the grandeur of Mauna Kea that belief is irrelevant to someone who sees them as an eyesore or a blasphemous affront to Hawaiian heritage/culture/religion. Is it possible to see that the reverse may be true as well? That someone's belief that the telescopes are "bad" is irrelevant to those that believe otherwise? Perhaps irrelevant is the wrong word, but I mean to say beliefs are not Truths, that humans come up with ideas or attach themselves to beliefs that resonate with them--and that the beliefs may have nothing to do with the reality "out there". Beliefs, and emotions, are biochemical patterns inside our brains, perhaps representing reality in small part, but probably not. This is true of linear thought as well, of course.
(Science tries to overcome this, in fits and starts, and as the biochemical representations get more useful in actually describing reality, reality slyly drifts further away--what a grand and human tale, albeit off topic...)
So saying to the "TMT is great" side that mana means the TMT should go somewhere else has nothing to do with that side's reality, and conversely, the "TMT is wrong" side can find no reality in the arguments for the TMT in that spot. They end up speaking past each other and emotions end up ruling both sides. Each side saying the other is blind to reality.
To those who think in a linear fashion the logic just isn't there. Wrongs have been done to Hawaiians and we want reparations so we will stop workers from building another telescope on Mauna Kea--it just doesn't follow. To those who think in a linear fashion you need a premise _and_ a solution. Not building the TMT does not solve the reparations gripe. To take it even further and say building the TMT means no one cares about Hawaiian culture or heritage similarly doesn't make sense to those who think in a linear fashion.
If the Hawaiians concerned about gaining reparations could agree on what that would look like--on what the _solution_ is--and then they could ask for that. If going through the legislative process with those demands fails then reiterate those demands and get a couple thousand people to sit down in the Keaau interchange and bring the east side of the island to a halt. You will have instant international attention, as well as the attention of nearly everyone living on the east side.
But, and this is the big but, if those demands aren't understandable to those who think in a linear fashion, then the sit down will be seen as selfish and immature as blocking TMT workers from building another telescope on Mauna Kea.
I have always been puzzled why Hawaiians have never protested OHA in a serious and systematic way. If I understand it correctly (unlikely!) OHA is tasked with making reparations reality. Instead, the protestors adopt police-state tactics blockading the TMT...huh? Perhaps in retrospect one day the protestors will look back and see that that was among the most ineffective ways to get...what? No solution is proposed.
I have never met a culture I liked. Pros and cons, sure, but in my most cynical moments I can see culture as a cancer on human nature, and yet find no historical culture without a religion, or without supernatural beliefs. So I suspect I am missing out on some very important part of being human. Yet I am happy to be the result of billions of years of natural selection using legos formed in star explosions even longer ago, even if the big bang happened by chance for no reason at all...
Cheers,
Kirt
I agree that the issue is divisive to some extreme. Both sides argue past each other and the end result is deepened entrenchment on each side, not simply on Punaweb but in daily life interactions. This is not so disheartening to me as I find "haoles go home" and "you worship dirt" both to be legitimate points of view.
I must preface my remarks with the admission that I am a complete spiritual flunky. I have no idea what spiritual means and many have attempted to explain it to me over the years, to no avail...
So when you mention mana, to me it is a _belief_ in mana, not some "given" truth. Embedding the supernatural with great power is problematic to me since it ends up being used as something of a trump card that grinds discussion to a halt. Even the chanting appears to be a similar trump card, as if there is some Truth in the chant that is beyond any human argument.
On one hand, it is often mentioned that the protest is about something more than the TMT (sovereignty?) and then when the question about what blocking the TMT has to do with the larger issue, the mana card is slapped down as a perfectly legitimate reason that blocking the TMT makes sense. The logic just doesn't hang together.
Though I personally believe that the observatories _add_ to the grandeur of Mauna Kea that belief is irrelevant to someone who sees them as an eyesore or a blasphemous affront to Hawaiian heritage/culture/religion. Is it possible to see that the reverse may be true as well? That someone's belief that the telescopes are "bad" is irrelevant to those that believe otherwise? Perhaps irrelevant is the wrong word, but I mean to say beliefs are not Truths, that humans come up with ideas or attach themselves to beliefs that resonate with them--and that the beliefs may have nothing to do with the reality "out there". Beliefs, and emotions, are biochemical patterns inside our brains, perhaps representing reality in small part, but probably not. This is true of linear thought as well, of course.
(Science tries to overcome this, in fits and starts, and as the biochemical representations get more useful in actually describing reality, reality slyly drifts further away--what a grand and human tale, albeit off topic...)
So saying to the "TMT is great" side that mana means the TMT should go somewhere else has nothing to do with that side's reality, and conversely, the "TMT is wrong" side can find no reality in the arguments for the TMT in that spot. They end up speaking past each other and emotions end up ruling both sides. Each side saying the other is blind to reality.
To those who think in a linear fashion the logic just isn't there. Wrongs have been done to Hawaiians and we want reparations so we will stop workers from building another telescope on Mauna Kea--it just doesn't follow. To those who think in a linear fashion you need a premise _and_ a solution. Not building the TMT does not solve the reparations gripe. To take it even further and say building the TMT means no one cares about Hawaiian culture or heritage similarly doesn't make sense to those who think in a linear fashion.
If the Hawaiians concerned about gaining reparations could agree on what that would look like--on what the _solution_ is--and then they could ask for that. If going through the legislative process with those demands fails then reiterate those demands and get a couple thousand people to sit down in the Keaau interchange and bring the east side of the island to a halt. You will have instant international attention, as well as the attention of nearly everyone living on the east side.
But, and this is the big but, if those demands aren't understandable to those who think in a linear fashion, then the sit down will be seen as selfish and immature as blocking TMT workers from building another telescope on Mauna Kea.
I have always been puzzled why Hawaiians have never protested OHA in a serious and systematic way. If I understand it correctly (unlikely!) OHA is tasked with making reparations reality. Instead, the protestors adopt police-state tactics blockading the TMT...huh? Perhaps in retrospect one day the protestors will look back and see that that was among the most ineffective ways to get...what? No solution is proposed.
I have never met a culture I liked. Pros and cons, sure, but in my most cynical moments I can see culture as a cancer on human nature, and yet find no historical culture without a religion, or without supernatural beliefs. So I suspect I am missing out on some very important part of being human. Yet I am happy to be the result of billions of years of natural selection using legos formed in star explosions even longer ago, even if the big bang happened by chance for no reason at all...
Cheers,
Kirt