04-16-2015, 04:32 PM
oh come on now ironyak, dispensing with the psuedo-jesting theatrics for a moment...
while admittedly my response was far from exemplary of the utmost in perseveringly polite, ever-patient and stoically diplomatic of responses, i'd say not quite falling within ad hominem territory (though granted, could have been within proximity of the gates... "...becoming amusing" likely implying gleeful haughty snickers of condescending disdain, when in fact it was more accurately semi-haughty snickers of dismissive disdain devoid of true glee with a touch of disappointment).
..."argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments."
granted mine was ...errr ...a colorfully expressed... summary description of the content of your argument.
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"...tends to raise both the mood and standards of the conversations ... takes part in (as ...done here)"
uhhhh, not without some hesitation i feel i should say i will regretfully have to disagree. and that's not to be taken as a personal attack or mean spirited. while likely not always so readily apparent, and i am quite confident despite good intentions and a sincere tone, much of what consistently leaps out between the lines i find is not so gracefully enlightened and especially thought provoking in an elevating way. that's as much as i care to candidly say specifically on that. i will say there are ample indications to believe there are any number of other fine qualities, as is usually the case among individuals.
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"How do you not see the Mauna Kea issue as an example of the tradition of principled protest?"
tradition of principled protest... just making clear what tradition we are talking about, not to be confused with historical ethnic cultural tradition which is on the tip of many a tongue these days.
i'd imagine the tradition of principled protest would encompass a very large tent indeed. i haven't seen this as disqualified from being called a principled protest. granted the principles touted so far don't sound well defined or very coherent at all but very ambiguous and, in my opinion, reflexively misplaced to a large degree with questionable tactics and some flagrant misinformation.
are all principled protests created equal? so highly subjective a question but i'd have to say not. ...Civil Rights protests...personally very high on my list. for the most part motivation relatively clear and transparent, universal equality the goal, ending laws which blatantly discriminate based on innate features. of course someone who believes in discrimination, segregation or exceptionalism might disagree. ...the Sea Shepard contingent, they get kind of fanatical with the vilification if you ask me. ...Westboro Baptist protests, bottom of the barrel, for obvious reasons. point being there can be a huge range among, and usually to some lesser extent, within.
there is also the possibility of said "principles" being truly represented or not. more menacingly, manipulation, exploitation, corruption and deception need to be guarded against. the possible contribution of hysteria, fashionability, and trend also need to be considered. social phenomena can happen for all kinds of tangled and convoluted reasons. we should each sort them out the best we can, sometimes easier done than others (depending on the complexity, or not) of that being observed and our own particular vantage point. ...that's my take.
while admittedly my response was far from exemplary of the utmost in perseveringly polite, ever-patient and stoically diplomatic of responses, i'd say not quite falling within ad hominem territory (though granted, could have been within proximity of the gates... "...becoming amusing" likely implying gleeful haughty snickers of condescending disdain, when in fact it was more accurately semi-haughty snickers of dismissive disdain devoid of true glee with a touch of disappointment).
..."argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments."
granted mine was ...errr ...a colorfully expressed... summary description of the content of your argument.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...tends to raise both the mood and standards of the conversations ... takes part in (as ...done here)"
uhhhh, not without some hesitation i feel i should say i will regretfully have to disagree. and that's not to be taken as a personal attack or mean spirited. while likely not always so readily apparent, and i am quite confident despite good intentions and a sincere tone, much of what consistently leaps out between the lines i find is not so gracefully enlightened and especially thought provoking in an elevating way. that's as much as i care to candidly say specifically on that. i will say there are ample indications to believe there are any number of other fine qualities, as is usually the case among individuals.
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"How do you not see the Mauna Kea issue as an example of the tradition of principled protest?"
tradition of principled protest... just making clear what tradition we are talking about, not to be confused with historical ethnic cultural tradition which is on the tip of many a tongue these days.
i'd imagine the tradition of principled protest would encompass a very large tent indeed. i haven't seen this as disqualified from being called a principled protest. granted the principles touted so far don't sound well defined or very coherent at all but very ambiguous and, in my opinion, reflexively misplaced to a large degree with questionable tactics and some flagrant misinformation.
are all principled protests created equal? so highly subjective a question but i'd have to say not. ...Civil Rights protests...personally very high on my list. for the most part motivation relatively clear and transparent, universal equality the goal, ending laws which blatantly discriminate based on innate features. of course someone who believes in discrimination, segregation or exceptionalism might disagree. ...the Sea Shepard contingent, they get kind of fanatical with the vilification if you ask me. ...Westboro Baptist protests, bottom of the barrel, for obvious reasons. point being there can be a huge range among, and usually to some lesser extent, within.
there is also the possibility of said "principles" being truly represented or not. more menacingly, manipulation, exploitation, corruption and deception need to be guarded against. the possible contribution of hysteria, fashionability, and trend also need to be considered. social phenomena can happen for all kinds of tangled and convoluted reasons. we should each sort them out the best we can, sometimes easier done than others (depending on the complexity, or not) of that being observed and our own particular vantage point. ...that's my take.