09-14-2017, 08:05 AM
More comments:
1. HOTPE, Pardon my misreading your comments Tues. I was disengaging from a debate and quickly scanned your comments. Failed to observe they were a challenge.
2. The method of opposition to my characterization of the helicopter tours as “elitist” is odd. Received comparisons to both buses and cars. Really? I use the term elitist somewhat like “first class,” but slant it pejoratively. (My opinion).
A tour bus takes 35-40 people to a destination. A car takes 3-4. What is the per person cost for each? For gas per person, say? None of this is first class or elitist. A limo arrives with 3 people. Per person cost on limos is generally much more than on tour buses. Buses--economy; limos--first class. Helicopters are like limos. But limos park in the lot like everyone else. First class but not elitist.
Helicopter operators are elitist because how they intrusively and arrogantly project themselves into both general public space and into public space close to homes. And operators get indignant when someone objects. Why are you complaining about my flying over your house? I got rights. Just deal with it. (Not their language, of course, but this is the gist of their sentiment.)
3.“People taking helicopter tours are generally well-to do; it is a pretty exclusive activity.” I made this comment to a HiCop organizer. He disagreed, stating that all kinds of folks take the tours. He observed most visitors have $1,000 plus set aside for pricey activities: surfing lesson, dolphin swim, ATV ride, diving, helicopter tour, fine dining, sunset sail, etc.
My opinion was wrong. Hence it seems one can conclude the following: If helicopter operations are severely curtailed, say by 50%, the visitors don’t take that money home. They likely spend it elsewhere. Hard to prove, of course, but gloomy predictions about lost revenues to Hawaii’s economy from a restricted helicopter industry seem much exaggerated.
(As far as the operators’ personal finances, separate question. Other tour operators have had to deal with new realities. NPS restricted bike tours down Haleakala. Now some of the dolphin tours being curtailed for environmental purposes. The public interest comes first.)
4. Another poster: It amazes me how much people argue aggressively over nothing on this forum.
Strange that anyone would consider this issue as trivial.
5. An elaboration of my “core group” comment, re overlapping group positions: “pro-TMT” and “pro-helicopter.”
TMT has widespread public support, helicopter tours not nearly as much. Both discussions on Punatalk are marked by the pro-clique engaging in collective argument against dissenters. 3 to 1, sometimes 5 to 1 or 2. Might be termed mild harrying by numbers. Add in some mildly derisive comments from the clique’s ever-present cheering section (4-5 Torys).
Apparently some would-be-challengers on the helicopter issue are dissuaded from trying to take on the pro-helicopter clique. I have no complaint. The real issue is the strength of your arguments. The no restriction on helicopter tours position is feeble. Your seeming dominance on Punatalk, illusory.
6. IMO, regulation is coming. Example:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manh...-1.2515497
New York is a long ways away, but what happens in one U.S. city on this issue is important. Precedent.
1. HOTPE, Pardon my misreading your comments Tues. I was disengaging from a debate and quickly scanned your comments. Failed to observe they were a challenge.
2. The method of opposition to my characterization of the helicopter tours as “elitist” is odd. Received comparisons to both buses and cars. Really? I use the term elitist somewhat like “first class,” but slant it pejoratively. (My opinion).
A tour bus takes 35-40 people to a destination. A car takes 3-4. What is the per person cost for each? For gas per person, say? None of this is first class or elitist. A limo arrives with 3 people. Per person cost on limos is generally much more than on tour buses. Buses--economy; limos--first class. Helicopters are like limos. But limos park in the lot like everyone else. First class but not elitist.
Helicopter operators are elitist because how they intrusively and arrogantly project themselves into both general public space and into public space close to homes. And operators get indignant when someone objects. Why are you complaining about my flying over your house? I got rights. Just deal with it. (Not their language, of course, but this is the gist of their sentiment.)
3.“People taking helicopter tours are generally well-to do; it is a pretty exclusive activity.” I made this comment to a HiCop organizer. He disagreed, stating that all kinds of folks take the tours. He observed most visitors have $1,000 plus set aside for pricey activities: surfing lesson, dolphin swim, ATV ride, diving, helicopter tour, fine dining, sunset sail, etc.
My opinion was wrong. Hence it seems one can conclude the following: If helicopter operations are severely curtailed, say by 50%, the visitors don’t take that money home. They likely spend it elsewhere. Hard to prove, of course, but gloomy predictions about lost revenues to Hawaii’s economy from a restricted helicopter industry seem much exaggerated.
(As far as the operators’ personal finances, separate question. Other tour operators have had to deal with new realities. NPS restricted bike tours down Haleakala. Now some of the dolphin tours being curtailed for environmental purposes. The public interest comes first.)
4. Another poster: It amazes me how much people argue aggressively over nothing on this forum.
Strange that anyone would consider this issue as trivial.
5. An elaboration of my “core group” comment, re overlapping group positions: “pro-TMT” and “pro-helicopter.”
TMT has widespread public support, helicopter tours not nearly as much. Both discussions on Punatalk are marked by the pro-clique engaging in collective argument against dissenters. 3 to 1, sometimes 5 to 1 or 2. Might be termed mild harrying by numbers. Add in some mildly derisive comments from the clique’s ever-present cheering section (4-5 Torys).
Apparently some would-be-challengers on the helicopter issue are dissuaded from trying to take on the pro-helicopter clique. I have no complaint. The real issue is the strength of your arguments. The no restriction on helicopter tours position is feeble. Your seeming dominance on Punatalk, illusory.
6. IMO, regulation is coming. Example:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manh...-1.2515497
New York is a long ways away, but what happens in one U.S. city on this issue is important. Precedent.