08-29-2008, 07:31 AM
no, I don't take it badly, KahunaScott.
I hope I made it clear that I was kicking myself and not asking for pity.
Thank you Scott and EightFingers for posting the excellent "how to hire a contractor" tips.
The first point of my post is warning about this guy's personality as much as his unprofessional attitude.
The second point is that with a community like Punaweb, where we make referrals to each other of good people to work with, a "Punaweb referral" can cause a person (like myself) to let down the normal guard of asking for references, photos, and a whole lot of info that I would always ask for if I contacted the person cold or responding to their ad.
It's the "friend of a friend" syndrome ...
As to the debate over whether one must always use a licensed contractor, I do not believe that for small jobs one should have to hire a licensed guy. In Hawai'i, the powers that be make it hard for someone to get a license, unless you know people, and relatively easy to get a license if you have relatives and connections in the business. There are very capable people who choose to work the small jobs, and I know quite a few of them who do great work and don't overcharge.
So, that is a matter of personal philosophy.
For my house, I just did an addition, and I absolutely hired a licensed electrician and permitted the job. By the way, Scott says not to pay any money down, so I will just say that with my licensed electrical contractor, they do not start work without a down payment, and neither did the other electrical contractor who bit the job.
I think it may be getting more common for the contractor to want a down... there are two sides to the trust issue.
Back to this job, had I seen this job as a contractor type project, I would have done it differently, but I saw it as a small job, a "clearing job." It was never meant to be a landscaping project or a grading project, just cutting down overgrowth. It was more of a tough job than yard maintenance, but it was not building.
Absolutely we still should have sketched it, written out the details, written out the terms, and so forth. I really don't know what I was thinking except that I'm exhausted from finishing up the permit project and getting through an exterior paint job, and not having had a day off of dealing with the house for months, and I was happy that someone who lives here and posts on Punaweb had used this guy multiple times and been satisfied, and the idea of getting this relatively small job knocked out appealed to me.
Frankly, there is NO WAY this particular job was going to happen going through all those steps and channels ... it was either going to be pretty simple or do it yourself. My son has a chain saw and can do clearing, but I needed to take something off his plate.
Was it a mistake to use this guy? Absolutely, mea culpa.
Always a mistake to hire a worker without a contractor's license? For some yes, for me no.
The liability insurance is of course a good point. Homeowner's insurance offers some coverage for people getting hurt. He was not an employee. I know a young man who WAS working as an employee but under the table, who did get hurt, and in his case he had to take the consequences of the lack of insurance. He had nothing in writing and wasn't paying into disability or workman's comp, so he was out of luck. There is a lot of risk for workers who go this route and it is certainly a gamble.
Scott, you said this was a quote, not a bid. Well, he called it a bid and it was definitely not an estimate. It was a firm price for the entire job. I know the difference between when someone is making an estimate but not committing to the final cost. As in, I charge this much per day or hour and this looks like a three day job. No, it wasn't like that. It was "I will do this (description of scope) for $1000, with 30% down and 70% on completion.
And he flaked, and lesson learned ... that I didn't know enough about him and should have gone with a more established and "over the table" clearing service. Yep. Lesson learned too that people aren't so easy to judge even when they seem very reasonable.
As it turns out, the original referrer had, since the time of posting, had gotten a glimpse of the guy's angry side ... and after that happened would not have referred him. But I had contacted him a couple months ago and was just now getting around to the job. Another lesson, update that referral by checking ...
Pictures -- I did take pictures before and immediately after he left. At least I did that.
I really appreciate all the pointers for myself and others and am not on the defensive here. Like I said, it was dumb on my part. I tend to see the good in people and do not expect someone to have a meltdown like this ... the guy CAN clear trees, but he has some serious issues that make him undesirable.
I hope I made it clear that I was kicking myself and not asking for pity.
Thank you Scott and EightFingers for posting the excellent "how to hire a contractor" tips.
The first point of my post is warning about this guy's personality as much as his unprofessional attitude.
The second point is that with a community like Punaweb, where we make referrals to each other of good people to work with, a "Punaweb referral" can cause a person (like myself) to let down the normal guard of asking for references, photos, and a whole lot of info that I would always ask for if I contacted the person cold or responding to their ad.
It's the "friend of a friend" syndrome ...
As to the debate over whether one must always use a licensed contractor, I do not believe that for small jobs one should have to hire a licensed guy. In Hawai'i, the powers that be make it hard for someone to get a license, unless you know people, and relatively easy to get a license if you have relatives and connections in the business. There are very capable people who choose to work the small jobs, and I know quite a few of them who do great work and don't overcharge.
So, that is a matter of personal philosophy.
For my house, I just did an addition, and I absolutely hired a licensed electrician and permitted the job. By the way, Scott says not to pay any money down, so I will just say that with my licensed electrical contractor, they do not start work without a down payment, and neither did the other electrical contractor who bit the job.
I think it may be getting more common for the contractor to want a down... there are two sides to the trust issue.
Back to this job, had I seen this job as a contractor type project, I would have done it differently, but I saw it as a small job, a "clearing job." It was never meant to be a landscaping project or a grading project, just cutting down overgrowth. It was more of a tough job than yard maintenance, but it was not building.
Absolutely we still should have sketched it, written out the details, written out the terms, and so forth. I really don't know what I was thinking except that I'm exhausted from finishing up the permit project and getting through an exterior paint job, and not having had a day off of dealing with the house for months, and I was happy that someone who lives here and posts on Punaweb had used this guy multiple times and been satisfied, and the idea of getting this relatively small job knocked out appealed to me.
Frankly, there is NO WAY this particular job was going to happen going through all those steps and channels ... it was either going to be pretty simple or do it yourself. My son has a chain saw and can do clearing, but I needed to take something off his plate.
Was it a mistake to use this guy? Absolutely, mea culpa.
Always a mistake to hire a worker without a contractor's license? For some yes, for me no.
The liability insurance is of course a good point. Homeowner's insurance offers some coverage for people getting hurt. He was not an employee. I know a young man who WAS working as an employee but under the table, who did get hurt, and in his case he had to take the consequences of the lack of insurance. He had nothing in writing and wasn't paying into disability or workman's comp, so he was out of luck. There is a lot of risk for workers who go this route and it is certainly a gamble.
Scott, you said this was a quote, not a bid. Well, he called it a bid and it was definitely not an estimate. It was a firm price for the entire job. I know the difference between when someone is making an estimate but not committing to the final cost. As in, I charge this much per day or hour and this looks like a three day job. No, it wasn't like that. It was "I will do this (description of scope) for $1000, with 30% down and 70% on completion.
And he flaked, and lesson learned ... that I didn't know enough about him and should have gone with a more established and "over the table" clearing service. Yep. Lesson learned too that people aren't so easy to judge even when they seem very reasonable.
As it turns out, the original referrer had, since the time of posting, had gotten a glimpse of the guy's angry side ... and after that happened would not have referred him. But I had contacted him a couple months ago and was just now getting around to the job. Another lesson, update that referral by checking ...
Pictures -- I did take pictures before and immediately after he left. At least I did that.
I really appreciate all the pointers for myself and others and am not on the defensive here. Like I said, it was dumb on my part. I tend to see the good in people and do not expect someone to have a meltdown like this ... the guy CAN clear trees, but he has some serious issues that make him undesirable.