SPACE, Bellyacres problems

[missydog1]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pilgrim

Well, I'm no scientist, but if you take a look at the ones they used to build space you can see they're a whole lot bigger than the trees most people have in Seaview. I suspect that's because there's some older lava there in that kipuka on the state land. Older than Seaview, older than Kehena. Actually from the little dot there on my old soils map it looks older than anything else around there. That's what makes it such a shame.

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Good point, Pilgrim. By definition, forest in a kipuka doesn't date from after the last flow, as a kipuka is an area that the lava left untouched. And the area had not been subjected to repeated flows in the last century as far as I know. I think the 1955 flow was the one for that area.

[punafish]

I cut down two ohia trees in my yard, and one fell down during a very windy day, barely missing my car. (Thankfully it was a northerly gust that knocked over the tree perfectly parallel to my vehicle.)

All three trees were dead and ready to be "harvested," one by default.

I don't live in Seaview, don't know Graham personally, and have no idea if he did anything wrong or not (the harvested ohias could have been dead for all I know). So I am willing to wait until all the facts are in before passing judgment...not that my judgment is worth anything.

[csgray]

"Well, I'm no scientist, but if you take a look at the ones they used to build space you can see they're a whole lot bigger than the trees most people have in Seaview. I suspect that's because there's some older lava there in that kipuka on the state land. Older than Seaview, older than Kehena. Actually from the little dot there on my old soils map it looks older than anything else around there. That's what makes it such a shame."

Or they could have come from somewhere else in Puna entirely, none of us know because we weren't there.

The DNLR report was issued to the media before VGS had even received a copy. My understanding of the process is the DNLR officer issues a report, those named in the report have a chance to dispute the facts, either in a hearing or a court of law, then the report is revised. At that point something that resembles the truth is supposed to have been agreed upon by all the partis involved. Going public at this point in the process is premature to say the least, but it sure has given all the naysayers a prime opportunity to disparage the VGS and Graham Ellis.



Carol

[missydog1]

I would be more sympathetic if it were not that this report is basically an update to the 2010 finding, saying that things are still the same. VGS has had four years to dispute the findings or argue why it shouldn't remediate as ordered. This report is just a "we went back, and they haven't fixed what they were mandated to fix four years ago."

The extra girth of the ohias was already known to be the size of ohias growing where there is now a horse corral on state land and no more ohias. They already have interviews with people saying the ohias poles went into structures on the Village Green Society parcel as well as into jungalows over the boundary into state land.

It's not like all this is a new discovery that is being sprung on VGS. 2010 report and order. 2006 date as known renting of the illegally sited jungalows.

[Rob Tucker]

I wish I could say that experience leads me to trust or believe everything a state or county office says. I take it all with a heavy dose of cynicism. The whole sage smells of manipulation on all sides by everyone involved.

[terry.way]

quote:

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Originally posted by pahoated
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In fact, the original articles are being corrected, with Ellis' responses. As usual with flim-flam, the story keeps changing from the Ellis view. He now claims he is the corporation secretary for Village Green Society (another shell company) and he is not the land manager. Now, he says he did know about the illegal logging but didn't have anything to do with it. Guess we need to wait for next week for the next story.

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It is the job of the shill to spin doctor, so mission accomplished.

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I also really don't appreciate being called a "shill."

Shame on me for thinking that, because I live right next door to Belly-Acres, and am far more impacted by their activities than nearly anybody else on Punaweb, I should have an opinion.

"Shill," "Flim-flam," and "shell companies" are all loaded words that are ambiguous enough to not be directly accusatory.

By definition, a shell company is one with no significant assets or operations.

VGS *owns* 10 acres, that everyone calls Belly-Acres. VGS stands for Village Green Society. It is a 501©(4). Thirty or so circus performers from around the world invested in it. So, it has an asset.

HVC is the Hawai'i Volcano Circus. It is a 501©(3) non-profit. It's a Kids Circus, for crying out loud. It owns a building: a pavilion that everyone calls SPACE. So, it has an asset AND an operation.

A "shill" by definition is someone who acts as an enthusiastic customer of a swindler to entice others, without disclosing the close relationship with the swindler.

Since I've disclosed that I'm a neighbor, and it's really no secret that I have kids in the circus, I don't see how you could call me a shill.

Hope you are well,
T.

[Rob Tucker]

I have had kids in the circus too and am very appreciative of the time and energy that Graham Ellis and others have invested in the kids with this endeavor. With little or no money the circus has been a focal point of skill development and self confidence for hundreds of children. A very positive experience. The history of the children's circus alone convinces me that Graham and company have done and accomplished more than any of their detractors.

I don't know where and when what logs were cut from what land with or without who's knowledge in government. I do believe they were not taken for sale to a McMansion on the Kona Coast.

For me the Volcano Circus and SPACE will overwhelmingly be associated with good community spirit in raising kids in a poor district on a poor island in the middle of the Pacific. More than the county has ever done for the area. More than R.J./Sativa have or will do as well.

Just my personal opinion.

[kalakoa]

Fraudulent charities are not "sustainable living".

Fradulent government activities receive a free pass, but do not create a "sustainable community".

All this time and energy focused on one particular organization will do nothing to fix the infrastructure problems suffered by all who reside in this County.

[terry.way]

pahoated, you are being intellectually dishonest:

quote:

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Originally posted by pahoated
That is the point, the only company that is an active 501©, which is claimed to be a Public Charity, is Volcano Circus. You say VGS owns Belly Acres. Others say Volcano Circus owns Belly Acres.

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What's your point: because others are ignorant, Graham is evil?

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There are companies within companies within companies. This is what fraudulent company scammers use. If you remember Enron, it was a for-profit corporation. By the time the investigations were through, it turned out Enron had over 600 shell companies, many scattered through the Caribbean.

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So because Enron had thousands of companies, Graham Ellis is evil? Stalin wore shoes, Stalin was evil. Therefore, everyone who wears shoes is evil.

There aren't companies within companies within companies. This is false. You are using false equivalency, poor practice in a public forum.

quote:

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There were defenders and shills of Enron back then, and its collapse harmed thousands of people.

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There were detractors and trolls who hated Mahatma Gandhi too. Martin Luther King, Jr. was shot.

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If you can't understand these types of cons, then there is no way to explain it further.

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I understand that Graham Ellis seems to attract the ire of a particular type of unbalanced person. There's all sorts of injustice in the world, but somehow, the fact that a small group of un-materialistic people are having fun in a small parcel of land sends some people off the deep end. "They're breaking the rules!" they scream. Yet there aren't many cars going under the speed limit.

[birchl]

Well said terry

#10048;