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HOTPE - Where are the mass protests? Where are the Protectors? Where are the lawsuits?
But of course, PTA is the site of regular protests for many years, some which were even announced on Punaweb: http://punaweb.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14710
County Council also passed a measure in 2008 calling on the military to address the depleted unranium issue (which was summarily ignored).
Perhaps these do not equate to the efforts against the TMT, but again, TMT is uniquely symbolic and open to challenge given its location on conservation lands "managed" by the state.
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quote:
Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge
Yeah, bombs are ok. More bombs, but science...oh we can't have that here
Here is what E. Kalani Flores and his group say about Pohakuloa:
Po-haku-loa is translated to mean: “The Land of the night of Long Prayer. Pohakuloa is known as the sacred heavenly realm of unity between the three great mountains –Mauna Kea, Mauna Loa, and Hualalai. To bomb Pohakuloa is considered desecration and sacrilegious to Hawaii’s native people – the Kanaka Maoli, and a continuation of the illegal U.S. military occupation of the nation of Hawaii.
Pohakuloa has been used as a bombing and live-fire site for more than 50 years. It is contaminated with a wide range of military toxins, including Depleted Uranium (DU) radiation.
Where are the mass protests? Where are the Protectors? Where are the lawsuits? Pohakuloa military base uses live fire depleted uranium bullets in their target practice. The bullets, with uranium, fall into the soil. In the scheme of things, looking at the big picture, isn't that worse than a zero waste observatory?
"One may pretend knowledge of philosophy more successfully than that of arithmetic." -Last Aphorisms (or how about, one may pretend knowledge with an opinion more successfully than with facts)
Sorry HOTPE - have to call you on both sets of nonsense:
From: Place Names of Hawai'i:
Pohaku-loa
Ranger station, section of Mauna Kea State Park, and land division in the saddle between Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa; land sections, Kai-lua and Wai-ki#699;i qds.; gulches, Kohala, Mauna Kea, and Wai-ki#699;i qds., Hawai#699;i. Cape, northeast Kaua#699;i. Point, north L#257;-na#699;i. Land sections, Kau-p#333;, Ka-haku-loa, and M#257;#699;alaea qds.; harbor, H#257;na qd., Maui. Land sections, point, gulch, and hill, H#257;lawa and #699;#298;lio Pt. qds., Moloka#699;i. Land division, Wai-a-lua, O#699;ahu (PH 89).... Lit., long stone.
E. Kalani Flores is simply making things up. Pukui is a far more authoritative reference on place names than he is. And given early Hawaiians' penchant for naming places according to their characteristics, and the multiple application of Pohaku loa to many rocky locations throughout the islands, Flores's claims are dubious at best.
Secondly, your claims about the military use of depleted uranium at PTA are considerably exaggerated. I have been unable to find any evidence that the military uses or has used bullets of depleted uranium at PTA. The only record of use of depleted uranium at PTA was in testing, during the 1960's, of "spotting rounds" for the Davy Crockett tactical nuclear artillery shells.
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geochem says: Sorry HOTPE - have to call you on both sets of nonsense:
1) Pohaku loa. E. Kalani Flores is simply making things up. Yes, I agree. I posted his interpretation/translation of the place name Pohakuloa, not because I agreed with him, but to show the amount of reverence he and the Protectors seem to hold for the area, on par with Mauna Kea itself.
2) Secondly, your claims about the military use of depleted uranium at PTA are considerably exaggerated.
That may be true, as none of us know for sure. The Davy Crockett shells you mentioned were not admitted to by the Army until decades after it happened. We may not know how many other practice rounds were fired, and how long they were used for some time to come. Or, perhaps it was only the Davy Crockett practice 50 years ago.
Here's a news story about some questions around the issue. There's no definite answers, and some of the "proofs" cannot be attributed specifically to Pohakuloa such as measurements in spikes of radiation detected around Pohakuloa, which could also be attributed to background radiation in the atmosphere anywhere in the world. I have seen strong spikes in radiation measured from 10,000 miles away during both the first Gulf War, and Chernobyl.
http://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2015/0...e-meeting/
ironyak says: PTA is the site of regular protests for many years
Yes, agreed, there have been some protests, but nothing on the scale of the Mauna Kea protests. I think the large, prolonged turnout of protestors against a telescope, versus what amounted to no more than a picnic gathering against Pohakuloa, seems in my opinion,inverted, based on the actual danger and threat.
"One may pretend knowledge of philosophy more successfully than that of arithmetic." -Last Aphorisms (or how about, one may pretend knowledge with an opinion more successfully than with facts)
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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Just so you know, depleted uranium isn't (in any rational sense) radioactive.
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HOTPE - I think the large, prolonged turnout of protestors against a telescope, versus what amounted to no more than a picnic gathering against Pohakuloa, seems in my opinion,inverted, based on the actual danger and threat.
Because the TMT protest probably isn't about actual environmental threat? IMO it's a land use issue which local government has shown repeated ineptitude at resolving. As is often the case, it's all about location, location, location, and given the State Constitution, Conservation land regulations, and UH's history of management, there are some substantial levers available to slow the already slow and clunky wheels of government. Can blame those grabbing the levers, but the machine was poorly designed and operated for a long time before this.
(Sorry Opihikao - way off topic again. Probably plenty of time in the process for yet another new thread for us all to repeat ourselves. Happy Holidays! 
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Glinda:
We are discussing TMT, are we not?
Why are you unwilling to discuss TMT?
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Depleted uranium is less radioactive than bananas. 60 percent of something tiny is even tinier. You're welcome.
Pull the reins Opihikao or the rip if prefer ... LOL.
aloha,
pog
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Because the TMT protest probably isn't about actual environmental threat?
Except that Protectors claim it is:
Pollution of the water table.
Oil spills from construction vehicles.
Disturbance of the site during construction of the foundation.
Some of the purported environmental impacts are true, some questionable, and some false. The questionable and false claims do not in my opinion strengthen their argument.
IMO it's a land use issue which local government has shown repeated ineptitude at resolving.
True enough. That is their strongest position, for the reasons you point out. I would only ask, if they stop the TMT and win their argument based on land use issues, does it in any way strengthen their position with OHA, and help them finally gain ownership of a homestead? Because that to me is a land use victory from which the Hawaiian people really could benefit. A homestead, as promised to Hawaiian families would provide them with the basis of a real, long-term success, not just a symbolic win celebrated for the afternoon, and then, finding themselves back home later that evening no better off than the day before.
"One may pretend knowledge of philosophy more successfully than that of arithmetic." -Last Aphorisms (or how about, one may pretend knowledge with an opinion more successfully than with facts)
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
The process appears to have been flawed, TMT construction should never have started before the contested case hearing. The O'O bar, shovel and the oil leaking heavy machine equipment should not have been allowed atop Mauna Kea. Folks within the BLNR department, University, and Mr Ishibashi should have known this process inside out, they were in positions to prevent this illegal construction and mess from happening in the first place. jmo
https://kauilapele.wordpress.com/2015/08...telescope/
A few questions here:
The TMT site is a "burial ground", True or False?
The TMT site is an endangered species "environment", true or false?
The TMT site is land held in "trust" and therefore belongs to the Hawaiian people, true or false?
The TMT project could have an "impact" on our water aquifer, true or false?
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