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"As to the terminology "divine intervention", it is quite difficult to express our cultural beliefs literally in English words. However, the gist of your position I agree with completely. Those who scoff at our cultural beliefs are allowed their opinions, as they have their own beliefs. It is eternally entertaining to watch all of it transpire...here on Moku o Keawe.
Tutu Pele, for example, is not pau...she continues to reign over her 'aina, as her favorite brother, Kamohoali'i reigns over the sea. There are stories we don't dare share, due to the Kapu. Worse, we might be thought of as "touched"."
Sorry, Opihikao, but as much as I respect you, your comments also suggest there is intelligence behind nature, so will ask you the same question - How are you going to show this is due to divine intervention?
With respect, saying it doesn't translate into English or you're not allowed to answer the question is a bit of cop out.
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quote:
Originally posted by TomK
"As to the terminology "divine intervention", it is quite difficult to express our cultural beliefs literally in English words. However, the gist of your position I agree with completely. Those who scoff at our cultural beliefs are allowed their opinions, as they have their own beliefs. It is eternally entertaining to watch all of it transpire...here on Moku o Keawe.
Tutu Pele, for example, is not pau...she continues to reign over her 'aina, as her favorite brother, Kamohoali'i reigns over the sea. There are stories we don't dare share, due to the Kapu. Worse, we might be thought of as "touched"."
Sorry, Opihikao, but as much as I respect you, your comments also suggest there is intelligence behind nature, so will ask you the same question - How are you going to show this is due to divine intervention?
With respect, saying it doesn't translate into English or you're not allowed to answer the question is a bit of cop out.
(BBM) Excuse me, Mr. Tom, on the contrary. Your question is a "loaded" one, and does not reflect my position. Nevertheless, I will attempt to answer your question, so as not to be accused of being a "cop out".
First, there is "KAPU" in our ohana (As you know, is one of the reasons I do not traverse to the summit of Mauna Kea). That is something perhaps you do not understand. I will share that in our culture, there is protocol for everything. Protocol, in the sense of respect towards any action put forth. This is not "science", Sir, it is purely our belief. Again, some things cannot be translated literally into English. At all.
In your diagnosis and dissection of my statement, the analysis you put forth, "intelligence behind nature", does not compute. It suggests, and portrays the essence of my comment(s) in a different light. That was not the intent of my statement, nor the point I was trying to relate.
My firm belief is reflected in the basis of MarkD's post, for the most part. With due respect, Mr. Tom, we could debate the minutia of each word stated, and in the end, due to our different cultures, all we can do is attempt to understand each other. Thankfully, the history here on PW dictates that we can also agree to disagree, and still be cordial. Mahalo for the question. I stand by my position, as firmly as you stand on yours, Sir.
JMO.
ETA: Clarity; e kala mai.
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" My firm belief is reflected in the basis of MarkD's post, for the most part. With due respect, Mr. Tom, we could debate the minutia of each word stated, and in the end, due to our different cultures, all we can do is attempt to understand each other. Thankfully, the history here on PW dictates that we can also agree to disagree, and still be cordial. Mahalo for the question. I stand by my position, as firmly as you stand on yours, Sir. "
Thank you, Opihikao. I think some wrong words are being used, on both sides. My own culture has plenty of people believing in a god or gods and hold similar views about things being "kapu". One of the most intelligent people I know and a favorite comedian in the UK has just come under investigation for blasphemy which to me is completely outrageous:
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2017...-blasphemy
However, when it comes to some deity controlling the ocean or volcanoes vs. nature, I see it much more of an argument between science and religion, not between cultures. And I have strong views about that.
No matter what, I will always respect views different to my own, but like you, won't back away from sharing my own views. I think that's a healthy position to have and really appreciate you'll do the same.
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quote:
Originally posted by TomK
"My firm belief is reflected in the basis of MarkD's post, for the most part. With due respect, Mr. Tom, we could debate the minutia of each word stated, and in the end, due to our different cultures, all we can do is attempt to understand each other. Thankfully, the history here on PW dictates that we can also agree to disagree, and still be cordial. Mahalo for the question. I stand by my position, as firmly as you stand on yours, Sir. "
Thank you, Opihikao. I think some wrong words are being used, on both sides. My own culture has plenty of people believing in a god or gods and hold similar views about things being "kapu". One of the most intelligent people I know and a favorite comedian in the UK has just come under investigation for blasphemy which to me is completely outrageous:
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2017...-blasphemy
However, when it comes to some deity controlling the ocean or volcanoes vs. nature, I see it much more of an argument between science and religion, not between cultures. And I have strong views about that.
No matter what, I will always respect views different to my own, but like you, won't back away from sharing my own views. I think that's a healthy position to have and really appreciate you'll do the same.
Well, Sir, before I rest, I will thank you for your kindness, and candor.
I only wish you had met my Aunty 'Iolani Luahine (Hula Master), and my Aunty Emma DeFries (our ohana Kahuna Nui), as both would have enlightened you far more effectively than this discussion. Both could rule the elements (a Google search will provide a couple examples). Both hold the mana of our Aumakua and Kupuna (not just Pele...). I actually believe, and have seen, that they are still "here", when needed and called upon. (Yes, I call on them to come, on occasion. Ku'o...as it were.)
Besides our immediate Kupuna who taught us our way of life (my Great-grandmother was a Kahuna), the basic foundation of our "religion"/culture remains the same. There was no science involved, to my knowledge...ever. It just "was".
Rest well, Sir. At least we can discuss these kinds of matters respectfully. Mahalo plenty.
JMO.
P.S. This statement proves my point regarding translation into "words": "I think some wrong words are being used, on both sides." Thus, my apologies for not finding proper words to express my position. Sometimes, there are none.
ETA: The "P.S."
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Excellent post. McMansions are an affront to humanity. If the sea takes them, we are better off. One small correction if I may. The sea level rise is not going to be much of a factor. Swells yes, but sea level rise? Not so much. For the Honolulu station, the current rise is under 6 inches per CENTURY.
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltren...id=1612340
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the current rise is under 6 inches per CENTURY.
...and therein lies the conceit of Man, to believe that things will remain "as they have always been".
We have upset the delicate balance that is our one and only ecosystem. Historical measurements are just that: history.
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Welcome to Hawaii - Ooga Booga Boo!
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Kapoho Joe @ 19:22:10-
Thank you for your irrelevant, yet relevant comment.
As long as other taxpayers don't have pay for your storm losses and quake losses,
enjoy your view.
As for earthquakes, we had a very damaging one here in 1975, biggest since 1868, did
damage in Puna. And significant tsunami. Just so you know.
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quote:
Originally posted by kalakoa
the current rise is under 6 inches per CENTURY.
...and therein lies the conceit of Man, to believe that things will remain "as they have always been".
We have upset the delicate balance that is our one and only ecosystem. Historical measurements are just that: history.
No, I'm not saying things will never change. I'm saying that statements like "...But many scientists say that sea level rise is skyrocketing and predict a 2 to 6 foot rise by 2100. For 2049, a 12 to 16-inch rise is not implausible..." are not plausible. I find it unlikely that the sea will rise 12 inches in the next 32 years when we are averaging 6 per 100 years.
The level of the sea has been rising ever since the end of the Little Ice Age. Look at the data. Look at the last 5 years or even 10 or even 100. steady. consistent. Do you see any skyrocketing?
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unlikely that the sea will rise 12 inches in the next 32 years when we are averaging 6 per 100 years
Again: a historical average is just that. History. The rate of change is accelerating.
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