A Question:

[JWFITZ]

If we used the same metric we did during the previous period we're at 12 percent unemployment right now.

[JWFITZ]

But on a constructive note, Charles, I'll chew on that. The question of course is "which" bullet, as clearly we've taken a couple. It's always good to quantify as it allows a lot less talking out one's arse.

Still, I think unemployment numbers are poor indicators this time around.

Off the cuff, however, if within 6 months we see oil prices back over 100 bucks a barrel, we've dodged a bullet.

[Jon]

I suggest you suck it up an move...I do not believe you really want to move or you would have, but then at least some of those countries require you to have a job before you move, because their welfare systems are going broke.

But you might want to visit first,
All those countries are in deep dodo...

you also might want to check out the freedom of speech in those countries... you will find they don't really have it.

quote:

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Originally posted by JWFITZ

Stick to your bubble gum, Jon, it's your forte. I would have moved to Australia, or Tasmania, or New Zealand, or Canada or most of EU in a heart beat, except I couldn't afford the property values and I wouldn't get a work visa. The economy in any of those nations is far stronger than here, and I'd have a retirement and health care de facto. Here, I have nothing, at all, which some might suggest to mean government in my case are irrelevant. I could have moved to New Zealand as a boat builder, and the wages were good, but the costs of ownership were so sky high that it was simply impossible. Besides, I can't drink that much. So, I was forced to look at the 2cd, 3rd world, and of course Central America and Mexico, but surprisingly I couldn't afford property there either, at least anything of value and viable, and of course, could not work. I looked at the Philippines as well, but again work was trouble, but property was cheap. Surprisingly, I got three prime acres of tropical forest in pristine condition right here in Hawaii, and the economy stinks so bad it was the cheapest of the lot. And by some measure. And, I can legally work.

As for James' definition of Anarchy, I'd suggest in the context of Bernie Madoff, where one can run a fraudulent racket in the 10s of billions of dollars, in full daylight, for a decade--wholly immune to any repercussions, that's pretty close to Anarchy in a practical sense. I don't suggest that's a good thing.

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Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[roseroo14]

Today’s troubles have nothing to do with liberal, conservatives, the left fighting the right, too big or too small government. It all is and could have been fixed a very long time ago. It can be fixed now in a accelerated manor. Yes, it’s late in the game and we are way behind on the score board, but we can and I hope that we will rebound back.. This will never materialize until one thing is implemented and the total nation agrees with it, and that is ACCOUNTABILITY.

When it is appropriate to let greed take over and not have any accountability to one’s thieving actions the government has betrayed the people that they are there to serve and protect. When an analeptic type of administration dose not acknowledge the fact that they have thieves within their ranks they neglect us even more. To allow a government authority to rape the national treasury without repercussions is not comprehensible to a person like me. That is exactly what these bailouts are. Yes, this non-functioning government allowed this to happen, not only did they permit it, they also have given the thieves a free ride instead a trip to the slammer. The reason for that is because if they put the criminal in the slammer many others would follow. So instead our government gave them a momentous bonus, [keep your mouth shut money] now we and our children will have to pay the damage while the fat cats are sitting pretty and our elected officials turn their posterior’s on us.

From our local civic government right up to the president there is no ACCOUNTABILITY. First that has to be established and then our elected officials have to stop voting in raises for themselfs and cut the excess fat off of government. I’m not talking about our military and its spending to protect us. I’m talking about the buckets of bucks that are consumed in government to feather their own nest. Let them survive like the rest of the nation and retire on social security. They will repair that problem in a matter of days, but instead they raped and pillaged the SS monetary resource that was never ever going to be touched. Again this materializes because they can, and do get away with it, after all who do they have to be accountable to.

Everyone seems to be running around saying that the sky is falling, the sky is falling, and getting ready to tighten their belts a few notches instead of going after the criminals that got us here and fixing the thing that got us all scratching our heads. Without accountability even if we fix today’s troubles we will all be here again in the future.

The Lack

[JWFITZ]

I think you're completely right, Tom.

Here's an interesting betting pool. How may days will Bernie Madoff hang in there before he has a "heart attack" or dies in a plane crash?

As for the rest of it, I've spent years total in Canada, having lived right on the border for a decade, and enjoyed very much their culture and mostly medical care, which was very fine and a quarter of the price in the US. I couldn't move there as a US citizen. I've held work visas in Australia and New Zealand, and have offers in Costa Rica, Thailand, and a very tempting one in Belves, France at the moment. I would have moved if I could have afforded it. I live in Hawaii now, and enjoy it and certainly don't begrudge it--but an informed and measured perspective is called for.

My taxes for the time I spent in New Zealand were almost 3 percent less than what I pay in the states.

Oh, and I did move, here, on purpose. I sold a 52 foot world cruising sailboat to do so. I'd stay that qualifies as a choice.

[Jon]

So it would seem you are part of the problem, not the solution. Pick a place and try to make it better not tear it down.

Canada is a fine place as is Australia and New Zealand, but they have their problems just like here.
As for Canada's heath care, well.. people there would not be rushing to the US if it was all that great. I hear its real cheap, when you can get it.... its the getting part that is the problem. Sounds like we will get a chance to debate government health care next year... should be as fun as the last time.


Be sure to watch these other countries close, even now the US economy is slowing down, and they are suffering, they attached themselves to it, and they will be hurt worse then the US. If they are smart they will not make the mistake again... but don't count on it.


Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[JWFITZ]

I'm sorry, Jon, I'm having a difficult time following your reasoning. Perhaps you could explain to us what the "problem" is, as you see it, and perhaps as well inform us of the steps that you've personally taken in your own life to work for a better future here in Hawaii.

[Sean]

"Do you really believe that personal civic involvement or government in general even remains relevant to our future?"

I believe that government in general is relevant to our here and now and our future. I have a lot of friends that are in the Gulf, who sent them? The government. A person started two wars, who is he? The head of the government. The government is pretty relevant to them (I got to go the first time and got a pass this time).

As for civic involvement, it seemed to work for the president elect.

Nice topic to generate discussion. Just curious, why do you have to own property when you move somewhere? I bought here because the market was low and I'm hoping to make money. If the market was high I would have just rented and had more time to not work on my house.

Cheers,

Sean

[james weatherford]

"own property" ... indeed.
The very state of "owning property" (we have 75 acres on 5 different parcels on this island) is in itself "involvement in government" because it is the government who establishes, maintains, guarantees, and assures the longevity and stability of property ownership.

Anarchy is an interesting topic for casual discussion.

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[JWFITZ]

Of course,

But no one here is advocating anarchy.

Rather, the point I am attempting to assert is that the majority of problems that we will be facing here in short order are problems that government isn't willing nor able to deal with. Because of compound muddle of ineptitude, self-interest, outright graft and bankruptcy, there simply doesn't exist the basic means to keep the most basic services of society intact. Of course this discussion is perhaps a bit ahead of the curve, but when we start seeing state pension/retirement funds going insolvent across the nation in the spring I expect there will be a lot more interest in the topic.

It's a shame however, if the best we can muster in leadership is belatedly reacting to what's already happened.