Planning Department vs. SPACE (by Graham Ellis)

[Rob Tucker]

"Well where does your analogy stop, Rob?"

I believe it stops somewhere around a reasonable compromise. In the work I am doing trying to reverse legal mistakes the CoH has made there is actually potential to bankrupt the county. What is the sense of that? Something more reasonable is appropriate I believe.

Insofar as SPACE has evolved, not from any adverse intent but in response to community needs, some compromise that prevents bankruptcy is also in order.

It may be (and I don't know for a 100% fact) that the complaint the Planning Department is responding to is from an individual who no longer lives on island and is filing complaints as a grudge match from the mainland. IF that is so then I would suggest that it may be a fault in the Planning Department system that fails to vet a complaint. Does the complainant have "standing"?

Casting a shadow over all this is the history of our Planning Director, Bobbie-Jean Leithead-Todd, of favoritism toward large business interests and a sense of disdain for small grass roots interests. To illustrate my point I would direct you to read:

http://www.bigislandchronicle.com/2010/0...bby-jeans/

Just about everything that happens in Puna happens under the shadow and failings of our county government over the past sixty years. So while I can respect Bob's approach to the law as a black and white thing I do believe that the "law" that has developed (or failed to develop) here in the middle of the Pacific needs to be dealt with in it's shades of gray.... and this can be applied to a broad number of subjects.

[terry.way]

Pilgrim, no, the farmer's market is not being stopped, at least not until the May 3rd Planning Commission meeting.

Bob, I'm going to call you out on two devious debating tactics: over-simplification (fallacy of the single cause) and us-vs-them mentality.

You write "The issue is simple;" and close with "That is the one and only issue." Really? This controversy seems much more complex to me. What you're saying sounds like over-simplification, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_...ngle_cause

I would love to have the debate simplified down to one issue. My issue would be: Why is SPACE persistently asked to stop activities within their SUP that are obviously good for the local community?

You also write "at what point do the people say, their word is worthless and they have by their own hand, proven they are unworthy..." There is huge public support for SPACE and the activities. If you were to ask "the people," you may not like the answer. I don't think the majority are somehow blind, biased, or incapable of making choices. Or are you trying some kind of us vs them sophistry?

There are legitimate complaints that need to be addressed. But it's also a fact that there are frivolous and vindictive complaints. Do you really believe that without those vindictive complaints, SPACE would have the problems it does?

There is a legitimate debate going on here. And the debate should have two sides that are fairly advancing their cause. Bob, advance your cause by 1) putting forth facts and 2) correcting errors, not by fallacy or fuzzy thinking.

[Bob Orts]

Maybe I can use some education because I find myself having a very hard time understanding one key point many have been throwing out. So can some explain the following,

What is meant by community?

I hear many saying the "community" supports, the "community" needs, fills a "community" need. Yet, I also hear from neighbors that although they support the idea, they oppose how its being done because they see SPACE as plain old bad neighbors. So, is the community the Seaview community? The lower Puna community, Puna as a whole community, the east side community, the Island of Hawaii community, the arts and alternative scene regardless of where in the world they reside? The entire universe who believes in what they are doing? I get the impression that "community" simply means "supporters“ (regardless if they are in the community) but not the community that many are trying to pretend it is.

[LastTangoInPuna]

I have come to realize that the definition of "community" is: People who think like me.

[terry.way]

Bob, I'd really like to have an intellectually honest conversation with you. I really do.

Asking to define something is a standard tactic to distract from the main point of a debate.

quote:

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"What is meant by community?"

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Well, we can look it up on the Internet: 1) a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government...

I'm happy to limit the definition to people directly affected by the noise and traffic at SPACE. And while we're asking for definitions:

What is meant by "zoned Ag?"

How is it possible that an entire neighborhood is under the illusion that they live in residential lots?

And this may be the heart of the matter. Some people want a residential, quiet, gated community. One where everyone gets in their car and drives away for everything: that sterile mind-numbing hell that is suburbia. And they delude themselves into thinking they found it in Seaview! No kids riding ATVs in the street, no dogs crapping in my lawn, no horses especially, and No Noise.

Other people don't want that. I'm one! I want an interactive, walk-to-the-local-market, help-my-neighbors-no-matter-what, forgive my neighbor his trespasses as he forgives me of mine, that's the neighborhood/community I want to live in.

Are you aware lower Puna has a serious youth drug problem? That just today a local school had a kid OD right into the hospital? Are you aware of the work Graham and the community have put into a serious alternative future for these kids?

Are you aware Seaview is in a "food desert?" An area that's more than 10 miles away from a supermarket, coupled with high poverty? Are you aware of the work Graham, Jenna, the vendors, and others went through to get EBT at this farmer's market? How can someone agitate to close down the farmer's market at SPACE, and look themselves in the mirror?

There are a couple of people who think SPACE are plain bad neighbors. You're right! Well, I think NIMBY CAVEs (Citizens Against Virtually Everything) are plain bad neighbors.

[jackson]

very well put, Terry. SPACE is the kind of organization any "community" should welcome and be proud of. They should also realize the added value SAPCE gives thier property. There are plenty of place of the Big Island to either have no neighbors or to live in a gated "hell."

[Bob Orts]

Terry, I have no problem discussing the topic but, understand that I don’t play the smoke and mirrors game. I’ve been involved in helping citizens get what they deserve and are entitled to from government for almost all my career. In the last few years, I have switched and now help developers and investors basically "screw everyone" for what they need. So, I know all the tricks, I know all the arguments, and I know all the tactics to keep the actual issue from being discussed. I will be happy to discuss the issues but the issue must be what we discuss not any of the "for the good of the community" rhetoric used as a mind game on ordinary citizens to blind them with non-issue issues that cloud and mask the real issue.

[DanielP]

Do I hear right? After all that brewhaha last year, SPACE was granted a Special Use Permit and then intentionally operated in violation of it?
If so, how incompetent are those running it?

Dan

[Greg]

Robert Petricci put it very nicely in Tiffany's blog;

Quote: "Typical, if you wanted to build a burger king and a 7-11 that would be fine but set an example of what a community can do with out the government and you get red tagged. A school a market, a community venue and activities for the kids. Everything the government claims to want done with out costing them a penny and what do they do. Shut it down, classic example of everything that is wrong with the current county administration.

They talk about sustainability but put up walls whenever we do it. You have created a model as has uncle Robert of the kind of community centers that fit into Puna. All those that want strip malls and burger joints have 99.9 percent of the land already, hard as it to believe some of us moved here because we like it the way it is."

Me:
Want a strip mall? No problem, Money talks.
Will of the people? Not a consideration; money talks.

There are "smoke and mirrors" involved, but take a poll of the people in the area and I guarantee the majority support SPACE.

The smoke and mirrors are coming from outside.

edit: punctuation

[Bob Orts]

quote:

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Originally posted by DanielP

Do I hear right? After all that brewhaha last year, SPACE was granted a Special Use Permit and then intentionally operated in violation of it?
If so, how incompetent are those running it?

Dan

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Correct.
Not only did they violate the agreements they made, they literally said that even though they know they are violating it, they don’t care. You, the community, the laws, the promises made, their word... well, they are all meaningless.

Even if the CoH was to receive an application for a zoning change, and the County grants the zoning change, who in their right mind could ever trust that SPACE will abide by the new zoning when they have shown over and over again that they just don’t give a damn. They don't beleive that the rules apply to them. They do what they want, they behave as they want, and when caught, they cry to the "Community" to bail them out.

To put in bluntly, which was pretty much the same as the last time, SPACE and their leaders are LIARS and can not be trusted to do what they say or abide by their own promises. That’s it, plain and simple.