Posts: 10,061
Threads: 343
Joined: Apr 2009
All,
Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but for those interested this is the latest news:
http://www.jach.hawaii.edu/UKIRT/news/Update_121218.htm
HTH article from a few days ago is here:
http://hawaiitribune-herald.com/sections...ukirt.html
As some of you may understand, I'm not in a position to say much more at this point, but at least this is information available publicly right now. It's been a very interesting and stressful few months!
Tom
http://apacificview.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1,679
Threads: 203
Joined: Dec 2005
That is great news Tom. Hope it comes to pass and the new people will want your expertise enough to keep on board!
Royall
Hale O Na Mea Pa`ani
Posts: 10,061
Threads: 343
Joined: Apr 2009
dakine,
There's some truth to your post but as I'm sure you know it's more complicated than that. Yes, UKIRT has a very small dome. It was designed that way to cut costs but also has the advantage of reducing the amount of thermal emission which is a killer for an infrared telescope, but yes, it would be almost impossible to put in a larger telescope because of the size of the dome. Also, in the past, UH have said that if UKIRT were demolished, that particular site would not be redeveloped. I don't know if that's still the case though as that was a few years ago. You are also absolutely correct that while the Kecks were being built and commissioned UKIRT went through several upgrades although I'm not sure if it was in response to the larger telescopes. It was realised that UKIRT, built cheaply, was actually a much better telescope than initially realised, but in order to fulfill it's potential, the upgrades were required to improve image quality. In any case, that's all a bit of a red herring.
As for reaching the end of its useful life, well, as you'd expect I'd take issue with that! It is very likely that UKIRT will be the most scientifically productive ground-based telescope on the planet this year. The publication rate (i.e., no. of science papers published using UKIRT data) have been increasing dramatically over the last two or three years and the telescope has already easily broken its record high from last year.
The smaller telescopes can still work in the era of large telescopes and the main reason, which UKIRt has exploited, is that although they may not be able to observe as faint objects as a large telescope, they have much wider field of views so are much better suited for survey work (which UKIRT has been doing for the last seven years). They are also much more suitable for campaign-type projects, i.e., projects that require lots of time (several dozens to hundreds of nights) for monitoring type observations (just as an example). They also are still quite capable of doing very deep imaging - in fact the telescope has just finished the Ultra Deep Survey (UDS) which goes at least a magnitude and a half deeper than any other comparable extra-galactic survey and is the envy of many astronomers around the world. So, although I certainly take your point, I don't think the telescope is anywhere near the end of its scientific usefulness. The funding pressure it is under is purely financially driven, not scientifically driven.
You do make great points though, much appreciated!
Tom
http://apacificview.blogspot.com/
Posts: 6,214
Threads: 354
Joined: Feb 2006
WELLLL....
Again facts help....
The observatories are about 75 years later than your time line of late 1800-early 19000's
The Chile Gemini South is at 2,700 M (~8,900ft) vs MK at 4,700M (~13,800 ft)
Chile has had many many troubles, including political unrest that have effected the desirability of their location... (just below the observatories people are still searching for pieces of their loved ones - children & parents....)
in a perfect world...
Posts: 2,979
Threads: 177
Joined: Aug 2006
I was up there yesterday and I have further bad news. They have ceased observing and are now manufacturing alien/human hybrids under those domes. They were never actually "observing". All photoshop. Aliens among us. In human form.
Oh, I know what you are thinking: oxygen deprivation plus Kelena = hallucination.
Go ahead. Laugh. You won't be laughing when you are put on the conveyer belt, carried into one of those mysteriously closed silver buildings and turned into a hybrid.
In the meantime, I think it is as good a place for a telescope as any, and there is no interference with the goddess up there. She is totally in control and does not disapprove.
I cannot tell you how pleased I am that there is another goddess on island. She's pretty powerful, too!
Anyway, telescopes are good. Human/alien hybrids are bad. Or maybe I am just not used to them. Perhaps it's a cultural thing and I will get used to it.
Perhaps I will open an oxygen deprivation bar in midtown Manhattan, get rich and move to Kauai. I think there is a need for people to get a little giddier by BREATHING LESS OXYGEN. It's POISON PEOPLE!
If you are people.
Posts: 10,061
Threads: 343
Joined: Apr 2009
pahoated - you raise some interesting points (as does dakine) but right now I just haven't the energy to respond, but will do so. Sorry, just too tired, but will respond as your posts are definitely worthy of a response.
Kelena - sorry, something obviously went wrong. We don't normally let people return to sea level after processing. I hope you're OK but we would appreciate you returning to the summit soon to finish things off. I hope that's OK with you.
Merry Christmas everyone.
Tom
http://apacificview.blogspot.com/
Posts: 10,061
Threads: 343
Joined: Apr 2009
OK, still haven't got the energy to respond as fully as I'd like, sometimes it's nice to get away from the job for a while and think about other things, but I did promise I'd reply. So here are a couple of brief thoughts, mainly in response to Pahoated and Dakine's intelligent and thoughtful comments.
Firstly, dakine, because this is easy and leads nicely onto Pahoated's comments!
quote:
It is my understanding that Mauna Kea offers many advantages over other potential astronomical sites. The stable air quality being one of them. And therefore I doubt we'll fall out of favor for future land based facilities.
This is absolutely correct although there's more to Mauna Kea as an astronomical site than that. It's high, so above most of the water in the atmosphere (great for infrared and submillimeter astronomy). It's an isolated mountain in the middle of the ocean, so normally winds and weather go around the mountain not above it, hence the stable atmosphere (in Chile there's little option other than for the winds to go over the site, but of course it's more complicated than that). The free seeing on Mauna Kea, as far as I can determine, is significantly better than Paranal for instance (which is the main base for ESO's optical and IR telescopes). For those that don't know what free seeing is, it's a measure of the image quality you can measure after light from a star has gone through the Earth's atmosphere and reached the ground. The smaller the number the better. Mauna Kea's average is around 0.4-0.5 arcseconds, Paranal appears to be worse at around 0.9 arcsec (this is at optical wavelengths). Paranal is also much lower than the summit of MK which means it has a much wetter atmosphere - bad news for infrared astronomy. Same goes for La Silla, another ESO site in Chile and Cerro Pachon where Gemini South is located.
Mauna Kea is still a superb site for optical and infrared astronomy, and still great for submillimter astronomy.
quote:
The locations in Chile are far superior with much less light, heat and radio interference and so far up in the Andes, there isn't anybody to protest, much less know about, the observatory locations. The Mauna Kea observatories have, and will continue to provide vast contributions but it really seems like the time to start letting them fade away. The reason to keep supporting them is nationalistic, not scientific. It will be a big blow to the eastside economy but it seems eastside Hawaii is more in favor of shrinking than expanding. This decline won't be rapid and the 30-meter will be there far into the future but it wouldn't be a surprise to see astronomy shrinking rapidly as part of the island's importance. JMO.
For the reasons I mention above I do not agree the locations in Chile are far superior. Some of their more remote locations clearly are for submillimeter astronomy because of their extreme altitude and remoteness, but Mauna Kea offers that as well and isn't anywhere near as remote, so costs, in theory, are lower.
I don't know what you mean by heat but radio intererence is a problem, but it generally comes from wifi at the summit - the Chile locations will have the same problem. Wifi is banned at the MK summit observatories but I can tell you we know if someone is using it up there.
Your comment that it's nationalistic rather than scientific to keep the observatories on MK is, frankly, bizarre. That's a new one for me. Astronomers chose Mauna Kea because it is a superb astronomical site, right up there with any in the world. Nothing nationalistic in that and the reasons scientists want to keep them there is because the observatories provide superb astronomical data - comparable or better than anywhere else on the planet.
What I will say is that it is much harder to deal with the politics here than in Chile, but that's local politics, not nationalism, while scientifically there's every reason to keep supporting them. The most scientifically productive ground-based telescopes are right there atop Mauna Kea.
And you are correct about being a big blow to the East side if observatories start being decommissioned. A blow to Waimea as well I might add.
Sorry, went on a bit longer than I planned...
Tom
http://apacificview.blogspot.com/
Posts: 820
Threads: 106
Joined: Mar 2006
The master lease for the land that is under all the telescopes expire in 2033, if I recall correctly.
There is only one telescope officially slated for decommissioning at this time. The Caltech Submillimeter Observatory will be shut down in 2016. It will take 2 years to dismantle the facility and return the land to its natural state.
There remains a possibility another operator may take over UKIRT and James Maxwell Clerk telescopes, so I'm holding out hope they won't be decommissioned.
The recent withdrawal of UK funding for Gemini observatory may pose problems for Gemini North down the line.
I haven't heard of any other telescopes being on the chopping block-yet. Nevertheless, there is a possibility that all the telescopes may be forced to shut down in 20 years when the master lease expires.
Posts: 10,061
Threads: 343
Joined: Apr 2009
Apologies for replying to an old thread, but the latest on UKIRT's situation has now been officially released. It's available via the JAC's web page and also the UK STFC pages and although you may want to ask questions there's not much I'm able to add at this stage.
http://www.jach.hawaii.edu/UKIRT/news/UK...ension.htm
http://www.stfc.ac.uk/2813.aspx
"UKIRT Operations Extended to 31 Dec 2013"
"In May 2012, following a review process, STFC announced that it would cease supporting the United Kingdom Infrared Telescope (UKIRT) on 30 September 2013."
"In October 2012, the Director UKIRT issued a global Announcement of Opportunity, soliciting for a new entity or partnership to take over the operation of UKIRT. This strategy has proved very successful: 13 Expressions of Interest were received, and after further discussions, two groups are currently developing full proposals. "
"In parallel with these developments, the University of Hawaii (UH) has agreed to take over the legal ownership of UKIRT and responsibility for the site on Mauna Kea when STFC-funded operations cease. This is a significant and very welcome initiative from our UH colleagues. The existing sub-lease for the UKIRT site will be terminated and UH expects to set up a scientific partnership with one of the two proposing parties to operate UKIRT."
"In view of the time required to terminate the sub-lease and set up a partnership agreement with a new operating entity, STFC will extend UKIRT operations to 31 December 2013. This extension will enable both a positive outcome for UKIRT and an additional three months of science observing for the UK community. The science programme for this incremental period will be determined by the UKIRT Board."
Tom
http://apacificview.blogspot.com/
Posts: 566
Threads: 22
Joined: Mar 2012
Great news 
Does this still affect the present staff as far as continued employment? You?
He who hoots with owls at night cannot soar with the eagles in the morning.
He who hoots with owls at night cannot soar with the eagles in the morning.
|
