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There was no science involved, to my knowledge...ever. It just "was".
That's how it was for most of human history. Before 500, or 700 years ago, there was no such thing as science in the way we know it today. People told stories to explain the events they saw around them. The stories personified natural occurrences, or anthropomorphized the actions of animals. Humans prefer an explanation for our place in the world, and have it make sense. Otherwise, let's admit it, life can be grim at times. Hawaiian culture told of our prehistory, when out of a great darkness, a void, came the earth, sky, stars, and sea. Everything had a meaning and a purpose, including Pele.
This is true for every culture, every nation, each small tribe who referred to themselves as "The People" as many of them did, describing the other tribes around them in lesser terms. Native Americans were surrounded by spirits, people in India had and have a multitude of gods and goddesses. Not that long ago Europeans believed in fire breathing dragons.
Even today, there are mysteries all around us that remain difficult to understand, even with science and rational explanation. For instance, how many of us really know what a computer server is, or does? What if you weren't exactly sure and I told you that someone had a personal, private e-mail server, and in my description I used the words "possibly illegal" or "hacker" or "breach." That sounds terrible doesn't it? As threatening to our well being as a fire breathing dragon might have been to our ancestors 800 years ago. A lot of people held that fear, and probably millions of them voted against a candidate in the last election even though they still couldn't to this day, describe what a computer server is or how it functions, or what it might do that would turn their world upside down.
We're still humans to this day. We continue telling stories that explain where we're going, where we are, and where we came from. A volcano is real, Pele is just as real for many, with a far better justification for her existence than can be made for some of the stuff we believe in.
Beyond this shore, there be dragons. Of that you can be sure.
If I know what I shall find, I do not want to find it. Uncertainty is the salt of life. - biochemist Erwin Chargaff
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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Being from the East coast and being white, it is not impossible that some of my Ohana were behind the Salem witch trials, trying to make sense of the world in the time tested ways passed down from their ancestors. You can find videos on Youtube where people in Africa and Paraguay still do the same today. Ah, the wonders of smart phones and the internet. Funny, I have never been tempted to wax philosophical or poetic about my ancestors' quaint habits.
Opihikao, if your family were at the shoreline and got swept away by a giant wave, would you acknowledge it as an act of cleansing or would you be screaming for a Coast Guard helicopter?
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How about everyone who wants to live in huts without power or any other modern convenience and pretend it's the 1500s or whatever can move to Molokai and leave the rest of us alone?
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quote:
Originally posted by kalakoa
unlikely that the sea will rise 12 inches in the next 32 years when we are averaging 6 per 100 years
Again: a historical average is just that. History. The rate of change is accelerating.
I hate to beat a dead horse, but do you see any accelerating on this chart? Any at all? Anywhere? (hint - look at 1920 versus today)
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltren...id=1612340
Didn't think so.
Your grandchildren will sit around the campfire and tell stories: "there was a time when people used to think that a common element called carbon that rises when we burn this wood would cause the sea to rise when we know now that it's Kanaloa seeking revenge..."
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it is not impossible that some of my Ohana were behind the Salem witch trials
...
we know now that it's Kanaloa seeking revenge...
Sometimes it matters what you believe, and you can act accordingly.
Other times, you may get swept up in circumstances beyond your control because of what others believe, all the while shouting "this can't be happening!" even as events around you continue to unfold.
The unbelievable becomes real due to a groundswell of supporters. Nonexistent facts may create actual reality out of nothing. Does it matter at that point who's right? Who's wrong? Once it becomes history?
When a wave sweeps you off the island and you're 100 yards from shore treading water, are you thinking, "I wonder if I'm here due to atmospheric conditions, or because Kanaloa is seeking revenge..."
If I know what I shall find, I do not want to find it. Uncertainty is the salt of life. - biochemist Erwin Chargaff
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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riversnout:
The melting of the Arctic ice is less significant than either Greenland or the Antarctic.
Arctic ice is already floating on the ocean, displacing liquid ocean water thus not causing globally significant ocean rise.
Greenland and the Antarctic ice sheets are mostly on land and will fully displace ocean water.
This is what is beginning to happen now.
This is where the acceleration is and will come from in future rising ocean levels.
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
Being from the East coast and being white, it is not impossible that some of my Ohana were behind the Salem witch trials, trying to make sense of the world in the time tested ways passed down from their ancestors. You can find videos on Youtube where people in Africa and Paraguay still do the same today. Ah, the wonders of smart phones and the internet. Funny, I have never been tempted to wax philosophical or poetic about my ancestors' quaint habits.
Opihikao, if your family were at the shoreline and got swept away by a giant wave, would you acknowledge it as an act of cleansing or would you be screaming for a Coast Guard helicopter?
MarkP, (BBM) that would never happen, as we were taught very early in life to respect the ocean.
Rule number one (1): Never turn your back on the ocean. Further, we learned to count waves, and watched tide charts. We knew when the undercurrent was flowing differently from the norm, and other "basics". Only people who put themselves in danger would be "screaming for a CG helicopter" (at our taxpayer expense, no less.)
Have a lovely day all, it's beautiful outside, and the ocean is calling. [  ] Far more enjoyable than the current PW these days (no pun intended).
Pau.
JMO.
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do you see any accelerating on this chart?
We are at the tipping point. Charts of "historical" data won't show the currently active trends for another decade or two.
Arctic ice is already floating on the ocean, displacing liquid ocean water.
It's worse than that: ice reflects sunlight, oceans absorb it. As the surface area of the ice decreases, more energy is absorbed from the sun.
Far more enjoyable than the current PW these days
Yes. I definitely need a new hobby, this one is pretty pointless.
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Aloha riversnout Appreciate your comments. In the past month I have read what I consider extraordinary information regarding reduction of the ice pack in the Arctic. Ice changes in the two other sites of concern, Greenland and Antarctic, are also dramatic.
(The cause is global warming. Hope everyone agrees on that.)
Your statement of 6 inches per century is correct. Why would it not seem feasible that 1) the above changes could bring about an increase far in excess of 6 inch per century rate and 2) more importantly, each subsequent decade will bring an even greater increase?
Human population is expected to rise from some 7 billion to 11 billion in 2100, further affecting climate.
http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/ne...eport.html
Several other commentators asked why do I think this is divine intervention?
I was not being serious. (Interesting that this was not perceived.) It is science-based. But I writing in a way to suggest that what is happening--or might happen--could be interpreted by native peoples to be a form of divine intervention.
It is one of their ways of looking at the world. In some instances what they predict comes about (though not for the supernatural reasons they put forth.)
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Aloha Mark!
I am naturally drawn to this topic as it meshes science with religion. I find the cult of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming fascinating. The changes you suggest are indeed feasible, I said they were not plausible. It is also feasible that Hawi gets covered by a lava flow, although it's not plausible.
One thing that gets me going is people who think that carbon is the main driver of temperature. It's not. It's not even close. Take a look up in the sky tomorrow and marvel at the giant ball of burning gas. KANE is the main driver of climate. If anybody is interested, here is the simple truth.
[Link removed by moderator]
The text is great, but the 250 comments below it are where the real knowledge is. I will leave this topic in peace now.
Mahalo,
Riversnout
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