Kazumura Cave

[MyManao]

In 1983 Dan Cunningham declared he had 'discovered' the vagina formation, and made a big splash locally about it's cultural significance as the site in which Kapo saved Pele. Of course there may be some problem reconciling that interpretation, but hey, it sure animated Dan.

Dan went as far as to purchase the land directly above the vagina with an adjacent entrance, and proceeded, after having the land and the tube below it surveyed, to install locked barriers along his property boundary in the lava tube. Evidently Dan believed that his right to ownership of the land included the tube below. I have no idea of the actual laws involved. Just a sneaking suspicion the state has their hand in it too. I also suspect we, as citizens, do not have land use rights in lava tubes other than how they apply to being directly below our own surface defined, and legally codified, land. But hey, I really don't know. Though I suspect there are some here that may, or at least would like to speculate?

Dan was hoping to 'preserve' the area. Back then, its geology and the archaeological remnants of those that used the cave in times past were pristine. There was a lot of evidence of the use of that part of the tube. Fire pits, fish hooks, eating utensils, sleeping quarters, heiau, and burial sites in pristine order. Dan envisioned preserving all of it, in place. But of course, as soon as his 'discovery' was widely known others, less scrupulous, put paid to that idea. At one point there was a 'sex therapists' that took 'patients' into the cave to help them. Whatever sex therapists do he was doing right on the vagina itself.

Dan had good intensions. He even went as far as to try and get the State of Hawaii to step in and persevere the cave. But of course, with all the land use issues, and each individual land owner's rights, and the fact that there are lava tubes everywhere, etc., it is a can of worms the state avoided, and, I believe, would still avoid today. Eventually, with many people and groups pressuring him to allow them to control the vagina, he sold it to Paul Mitchell (of Paul Mitchell hair product fame) who soon thereafter died. I have no idea what Paul's estate has done with it, but OMG what a whirlwind of controversy... 

There are other issues, like the many burial sites, and how the families involved with them feel. Those families are still among us and I suspect its safe to assume some have feelings about the disturbance of their ancestors. I would speculate that to be more true where the Hawaiians were more populated, which I suspect is more makai than mauka. The vagina formation, down about 36 - 35 avenue, is in the makai end and in an area that has many other caves with a similarly rich cultural history. There are caves near there that are a part of the same large Ai-laau flow field, but not the Kazumura tube itself, with large petroglyphs and strong fortifications protecting entrances that suggest their use as defenses for the occupants. Places with far more historical, cultural, and archaeological significances that would warrant preservation before the Kazumura tube system.

There are also other, known, lava tubes that may be as long if not longer than the Kazumura tube system. The ones I am aware of are on Mauna Loa where they are less known/accessible and as such there is less information about them. There is one that starts in the Red Hill area and descends towards Hilo of which as much as 20 miles have been explored. There are features along its path that are far grander than those seen in the Kazumura tube. Some mind boggling so. The way a high volume flow would come down from the rift and then pond in the saddle and inflate before sending flows down slope towards Hilo created massive structures, and bodies of lava that cooled far slower causing features created by thermal erosion, stalactites and such, to be much more developed and elaborate. And crystals that form as the magma cools to be much more abundant.

Even so, I agree, the Kazumura tube system is super cool. But going beyond just appreciating it here, where we can't even get it together to have a decent road system, let alone water and sewage systems, or a government structure that really works, or a culture that has contrary ideas of land use, is asking way too much. At least not in this lifetime. And besides, in a land where every rock is potentially someone elses concern a venture of the sort you are suggesting is bound to upset someone. But hey, whatever you end up doing good luck to you and yours, and yes, keep us informed.

[MikeyMike11]

•  I also suspect we, as citizens, do not have land use rights in lava tubes other than how they apply to being directly below our own surface defined, and legally codified, land. But hey, I really don't know. Though I suspect there are some here that may, or at least would like to speculate?
  

You are somewhat correct here, but that does not stop others from conducting cave tours through this cave... There are only 2 I am aware of. You can read more here: https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session20...8_cd1_.htm
As you can see it is very cave owner friendly, and generally follows the land use and ownership that we see on the Mainland with property rights extending to the center of the Earth. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it is what it is.
About access: -7 Access. No person may enter or traverse a cave, or any segment thereof, without the property owner's prior written consent.

• Even so, I agree, the Kazumura tube system is super cool. But going beyond just appreciating it here, where we can't even get it together to have a decent road system, let alone water and sewage systems, or a government structure that really works, or a culture that has contrary ideas of land use, is asking way too much. At least not in this lifetime. And besides, in a land where every rock is potentially someone elses concern a venture of the sort you are suggesting is bound to upset someone. But hey, whatever you end up doing good luck to you and yours, and yes, keep us informed.
  

You are also correct here... I know for certain I will be upsetting "someone". But this particular individual has a cesspit in this Kapu. And yet their message is the same as mine: preservation. We will see. I will be meeting with them, and how this meeting will go will be dependent totally on their actions, behaviors, and attitude towards me. I am a business owner who focuses on eco-tourism. I understand the nature of a sacred space, as believe it or not, we have them also on the Mainland.

Many cavers are good at keeping secrets. I love caves, and have had many adventures in caves in the Northern Rockies. I like to share my experiences with others, and have had almost 20 years experience in the tourism industry. Around this entrance, I counted 4 homes, and 1 AirBnB. My lot will not even have a permanent structure on it (to avoid Hawaii County's onerous permitting process), and a food forest. Our focus will be strictly sustainability, as that is the life we choose to lead. I will have an open invitation to those people who may want to keep it "private" or "secret". But hopefully they can see that their message that they deliver to their guests of anti-commercialization (while charging per head), and preservation (while dumping their **** into the pristine underground waters) is at odds with what is really happening. This tends to happen when 1 or 2 individuals lay claim to an area and decide what is what. 

There is also another enormous secret cave on Hualālai. This one is the steepest lava tube in the world, and honestly, should probably remain secret. Once Instagram gets ahold of something it goes to hell. This spot is very beautiful, maybe the most beautiful spot. There is no need for more "cave tours" with Kazumura being so vast and easy to traverse, and this one should remain shrouded by the mists, let's say.

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Good luck suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous fools in your efforts to start a business in Hawaii County. I'm looking forward to visiting your attraction before it gets shut down!

Do you have any more info on this, as it is my main concern?

I feel as if the time is ripe for a new business in Hawaii. With the State still shut down, the State budget must be aching right now, and ready for more cash in the form of taxes. I pay them here where our other business is based, and they go straight to the State fund which pays for schools, roads, police, etc. I am not anti-tax, I just ask that I be able to do what I do, within reason. Some may see that as a form of extortion, but we have always seen it as a way of giving back.

I don't know how the State would regulate this, but I'm also not looking to stir up any controversy, so if there's no regulations in place, then well, they will be lucky to have someone like me, who wants to preserve this underground space.

[Punaperson]

What you consider a 'national treasure' to be used as a way to make $ via tours and a cafe is viewed differently by others. This lave tube system may be new to you, but it has a long history. Parts of it have a paper trail of documentation, and parts of it are known only as oral history. A few points that you should consider:

- There are many iwi ( burial bones ) in the Puna stretch of the tubes. Many of the side tunnels are not detailed by maps even after having been explored because they are burial sites.

- I have been in several parts of the tube ( many years ago, non-burial sections ). One time, we were hit by STRONG sulfur smells. We were able to make it out, but I was coughing for weeks, and it marked the last time I went into the tubes. This is part of a system of a still active volcano. Kilauea is not erupting right now, but she still burping, as the many instances of sulfur smells in the breezes attest. How would you plan on evacuating someone who was having a heart attack or a severe asthma episode because of a wave of volcanic gas? Would you expect first responders to enter ? What level of liability insurance would the county/state require you to carry ?

- You say you have purchased 3 acres. That means most of your expected tours will be going under other people's property. While there are over 100 documented entries into the tubes just in Puna ( meaning big enough for a body), there are multitudes more skylight openings. I know of one fairly recent arrival who spent a good bit of time trying to figure out where the noises he kept hearing were coming from. For a short time he thought he was either hallucinating or being haunted. It turned out he was hearing echoes from an entrance several lots up that was on his neighbor's property. That neighbor had a fondness for descending into the entrance on his property and playing his music ( bass guitar ), as he liked the acoustics. The last I knew was they are still trying to work out a solution. The moral of this tale: while you own only 3 acres, the repercussions of what you are planning will affect a much wider audience than you may envision. Maybe you should actually get here, and live in your neighborhood awhile before you decide what you should do. Seeing how this idea of yours will affect your neighborhood is the first consideration: learning the paperwork of a tour business and the health/sanitation requirements of a food establishment is a whole different kuleana.


randomq: Good luck suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous fools in your efforts to start a business in Hawaii County. I'm looking forward to visiting your attraction before it gets shut down! Wink

Pointing out obvious flaws to someone who has made grandiose plans that will affect their whole neighborhood before they even move here can be viewed in other ways. And why do you need a commercial tour / cafe enterprise take you into the caves ?

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MM11There is also another enormous secret cave on Hualālai. This one is the steepest lava tube in the world, and honestly, should probably remain secret. Once Instagram gets ahold of something it goes to hell. This spot is very beautiful, maybe the most beautiful spot. There is no need for more "cave tours" with Kazumura being so vast and easy to traverse, and this one should remain shrouded by the mists, let's say.

Why would you even mention this on a public forum !?! It says a lot about you.

[terracore]

"§ -7 Access. No person may enter or traverse a cave, or any segment thereof, without the property owner's prior written consent."

If I understand this correctly, anybody who offers a cave tour that extends beyond their property lines is operating illegally unless they have the written consent of all the owners of the ground above?

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

anybody who offers a cave tour that extends beyond their property lines is operating illegally unless they have the written consent of all the owners of the ground above?
...
 No person may enter or traverse a cave...


If traverse means what I think it means, you’re probably correct terracore.  Full disclosure: I’m not a lawyer, but I do own a dictionary.  I would also guess enforcement would be difficult for owners on the surface.  I find it hard to imagine a cop would respond if they received a cave trespassing call.

[kalakoa]

Feel free to try starting a business in Hawaii, the State and County will bleed you dry before you've invoiced your first customer.

[MikeyMike11]

• What you consider a 'national treasure' to be used as a way to make $ via tours and a cafe is viewed differently by others.  This lave tube system may be new to you, but it has a long history. Parts of it have a  paper trail of documentation, and parts of it are known only as oral history.  A few points that you should consider:There are many iwi ( burial bones ) in the Puna stretch of the tubes.  Many of the side tunnels are not detailed by maps even after having been explored because they are burial sites.
  

Yea, there are already people whoring this tube out, and I will not be one of them. I think you are projecting your fears on to what you THINK I am doing. Or perhaps you are one of the existing tour operators afraid of some healthy competition? Well rest assured that I am not offering tours, or plan to. This you would know if you had read through my comments more comprehensively.

• How would you plan on evacuating someone who was having a heart attack or a severe asthma episode because of a wave of volcanic gas?    Would you expect first responders to enter ?  What level of liability insurance would the county/state require you to carry ?
  

If you had read the link of the Hawaii Cave Law (which was vetoed by the Gov in 2008 actually) you will see that if an owner to an entrance does not charge a fee, there is no liability to incur.

You should read my comments a little more. When did I say I was offering tours? Go back and re-read what I wrote, I am not even planning on building permanent structures on my lot, as I do not want to cut any Ohia trees down... I mean it sounds like you have some pre-conceived notion of some giant tour company coming down there to bulldoze the rainforest. I have a STEM degree and treasure Mother Nature, as it is in my lifeblood. Maybe you should be more concerned with the current state of the tube, caused by the CURRENT tour operators, and not me. I wanted to open this up for educational and cultural reasons. With an over riding theme of preservation.

• Seeing how this idea of yours will affect your neighborhood is the first consideration:  learning the paperwork of a tour business and the health/sanitation requirements of a food establishment is a whole different kuleana.
  

Ummm, are you aware of the people already offering tours from their backyards? What about the AirBnB's right on top of the tubes? What about the lodges which serve food? Obviously people can get it done somehow, but there will always be those who say things are impossible. Those people usually don't do business, as it takes problem solving, logistics, and organization. Maybe you are upset with anyone intruding into YOUR Hawaii or something? I have managed restaurants before, do you just assume everyone is incapable of running a business?

• Pointing out obvious flaws to someone who has made grandiose plans that will affect their whole neighborhood before they even move here can be viewed in other ways.  And why do you need  a commercial tour / cafe enterprise take you into the caves  ?
  

Where did you get the notion I was even doing cave tours? I feel as if you are projecting your fears on me, when I specifically wrote this about my plans: "We want to open up the Sexton's Maze, and Eureka Falls for tours. My end goal is to open it to the public to explore on their own, and have a cafe up top, as we plan on farming the 3 acre portion we have with a food forest. I researched this cave for years before this came up for sale."

Or was it this comment I wrote that made you come to your conclusion: "My end goal is to preserve this national treasure, as best as one individual can do, and hope to connect with cavers and cave tour guides who may want to bring their groups down there."

I think you need to read my comments a little closer before you come to any conclusions about "my plans" I am well aware of the burial chambers and think it is a shame that some people dump their sewage into these Kapu. I am all about preservation. Again, you should really contain your judgements unless you are sure about what I am doing.

• Why would you even mention this on a public forum !?!    It says a lot about you.
  

This is public knowledge? You can look it up in the Hawaii Speleological Survey, and Hualālai is a mountain, and this is on private land, so it would be nearly impossible for anyone to find. But I see that you have passed your judgement on me already. I apologize for hurting your feelings and calling these caves a National Treasure. I am even more sorry you disagree with that,

[Punaperson]

I tried to be respectful in my post, not judgmental, and bring up things of which you didn't seem aware. If I was not clear, I will try to be so in my response. I don't have time right now to respond to all of your comments, but I will start and continue later as my time allows.

You quote yourself for emphasis from your own earlier post and this is what strikes the loud note that I responded to: "We want to open up the Sexton's Maze, and Eureka Falls for tours. My end goal is to open it to the public to explore on their own, and have a cafe up top ". Perhaps it is less my reading your comments closely than it is your writing clearly.

I am not a tour operator 'afraid of healthy competition'. Before I retired several years ago, I had 2 businesses: a plant nursery that kept food on my table and paid my bills for over 30 years; and a sub-contracting service for the Mauna Kea observatories for over 20 years. So your comment "Those people usually don't do business, as it takes problem solving, logistics, and organization " does not apply. But I am aware of the state/county rules and regs that you are already planning to skirt by announcing publicly on this forum that you plan to open a cafe with out any permanent structures so you can avoid the permits required. So question #1: how/where do you expect to deal with any bathroom/sewage issues your cafe will generate? Or is this 'judgemental' ?

Your quote: " Where did you get the notion I was even doing cave tours?" See the above reference to your own words: "We want to open up the Sexton's Maze, and Eureka Falls for tours." Again, perhaps it is not my reading comprehension, but your writing skills that need work.

If you read my post ' a little closer before coming to any conclusions ' , you will see that I stated that I stopped entering the lava tubes after a serious health issue that was a direct consequence of being underground when a wave of volcanic gasses swept down the tube we were in, and made us all ( 4 people ) wonder if we would be able to make it to an exit. I will repeat, this is part of a lava tube system of an active volcano. Whether you have technical liability because some one pays a subcontracting tour operator rather than you directly, it should be on your brain. Just because other people are doing stupid and reckless tours does not give you automatic permission to do the same.

[randomq]

How much will the EIS and CIA cost?

[MikeyMike11]

• I tried to be respectful in my post, not judgmental, and bring up things of which you didn't seem aware.  
  

You did a good job at being judgmental actually, maybe some self awareness on your part is in order.

• Perhaps it is less my reading your comments closely than it is your writing clearly.
  

No I don't think so, currently there is only one way to see this fantastic portion of the cave, I would like to open up my entrance, so that other tour guides can make a living, taking tourists down there. Is that more clear? You pick and choose my words to quote, then two of us can play that game. I specifically state I wanted other tour operators, who probably could do a better job, do tours in that area of the cave as well.

• But I am aware of the state/county rules and regs that you are already planning to skirt by  announcing  publicly on this forum that you plan to open a cafe with out any permanent structures so you can avoid the  permits required.  
  

So what, in one sentence you tell me how hard it is to start a business in Hawaii, then in this next one you are criticizing me for skirting around regulations of which I am not? Skirting regulations would be dumping my sewage into the cave, or not following zoning guidelines, or running an illegal ABB. I am legally allowed to do what I plan, so why don't you correct your way of thinking about me, and realize that your argument is weak in this case. So are you the county code enforcer, or are you Mr. Follow-The-Rules guy? Which is it? You are such a selective thinker, that you again, ignored the rest of my comment which stated I was building non-permanent structures, as it would require me to remove many ancient ohia trees. Did you miss that one too?

• So question #1: how/where do you expect to deal with any bathroom/sewage issues your cafe will generate? Or is this 'judgemental' ? 
  

Listen to how patronizing you sound. You are being ironic in that you are sounding judgmental, while pretending not to be. And how will I deal with sewage?? I will apply for a permit. Are you aware of other places which do this? I mean there's other places out there serving up food right? There are many ways to deal with sewage as well, but one things for certain, I won't keep a cesspit in the cave, or run a pipe in there... Maybe look up ways of dealing with sewage? In fact one of the tour operators runs all their ****, from their lodge, where they serve food, INTO the cave, and is legally allowed to do so (don't drink the water in there). I bet you didn't know that. But you're probably cool with that right, as long as I don't get to run a cafe?

• Your quote: " Where did you get the notion I was even doing cave tours?" See the above reference to your own words: "We want to open up the Sexton's Maze, and Eureka Falls for tours." Again, perhaps it is not my reading comprehension, but your writing skills that need work.
  

No I think the problem is that you are a selective reader, in which you choose to see the words which may reflect your mood or attitude of the hour. Include my full quote when you quote me. 

• If you read my post  ' a little closer before coming to any conclusions ' , you will see that I stated that I stopped entering the lava tubes after a serious health issue that was a direct consequence of being underground when a wave of volcanic gasses swept down the tube we were in, and made us all ( 4 people ) wonder if we would be able to make it to an exit.  I will repeat, this is part of a lava tube system of an active volcano.  Whether you have technical liability because some one pays a subcontracting tour operator rather than you directly, it should be on your brain.  Just because other people are doing stupid and reckless tours does not give you automatic permission to do the same.
  

Ok I get it now, your rant was strictly about you... Well, I'll tell you what, why don't you get on the old google machine and read the reviews of the HUNDREDS OF TOURS that have been done already, with no ill effects. Your lungs got injured, so it's not "on my brain", maybe you should take one of these fantastic tours instead next time where it seems relatively safe for grannies and children 11 and up? I would imagine that a tour operator would have some liability insurance, and in fact, I may demand that for common sense reasons, and then they would add me as additional insured for every single trip, to cover my liability. I am not forcing anyone to go down there. What I do want is to open the cave up to the public, and not just 2 tour operators. Maybe show them something they don't get to see on the standard tours. Access would be much easier into the better sections.


You know what's interesting? You seem to want to pick on me, but you don't mention once anywhere that these tours are likely operating illegally, trespassing under peoples' properties. Yet I never even said I would be doing that, out of respect for these landowners... I wonder why? Were you trespassing when you got injured? Why aren't you worried about the rules, except when it applies to my cafe's operation?

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How much will the EIS and CIA cost?

Not sure about what a CIA is, but in terms of EIS, I would apply for a FONSI. And I'd get it.