Living in a tent on your private property.

[Bob Orts]

Which attorney at the ACLU are you speaking with because I can send that person a copy of the United States Supreme Court rulings that upheld the constitutionality of both zoning and building codes (which this falls under). And if they like I can send some 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling that upheld government’s rights to impose land use issues including prohibition on building types (permanent and temporary), use and construction, to include tents. If they want, I can stop by next visit and sit and discuss this with them

[Wao nahele kane]

Go ahead Bob the link is above, chat all you like with the ACLU.
Your copies of the court ruling that upheld zoning and building codes are not the issue nor are the other citations.
There are limitations to those codes and if you think they are unlimited in scope, you're sorely mistaken.
I'm not going to argue with you about civil rights accompanied by zoning and building codes. You'll have to do that with some-one else.
BTW Post a copy of the government’s power (not "rights") to impose prohibitions on construction materials. I’d really like to see that one. There’s a big difference between building types, thier uses and materials used. Please don't post some ruling that upholds the use of lead free solder vs. lead solder in copper soldering for water supply lines or anything to the effect of reasonable materials application.

Are you familiar with the Supreme Court ruling on Iron vs. ABS pipe in the use of waste water? How about any of the recent rulings regarding PEX and other like type materials?

Do you know what constitutes a takings?

I’m almost certain that the county would prefer not paying the difference between the price of a tent and full blown out house or even a resort should such a case come forward. Think about that little issue for a while and do some deep research on the subject. Then you’ll have but one of several key legal issues the county will be facing.

There are an arsenal of court cases that strike municipal bans on materials and some even result in financial awards. So unless the county has sufficient interest to show cause for applying the following “No tent of canvas, plastic, or similar material shall be used for residence purposes.” on private property owners for private use… the county faces a dilemma in the takings arena. They still face the same issue should a hotel chain come along wanting to make a tent based resort and decide to take the county to court. The county is sitting on issue that could erupt at any time and not all eruptions come in the form of volcanoes.

If the county would like sufficient interest perhaps a dose of reality is order.
U.S. military encampment complete with A.C. and small arms fire protection.
http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/c...myTent.jpg
Mobile hospital… look how dirty and unsafe this camp site is, there seems to be no comforts what so ever.
http://specialtyfabricsreview.com/reposi...08_sh2.jpg
The harsh environment of Alaska is somehow withstood by yurts and a yurt village spawned. How unsanitary and unsafe!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EvjT4JYr0jc/Sk...lage+1.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EvjT4JYr0jc/Sk...lage+2.JPG
Here we have a very meager and lowly place where people are forced to experience tent living. What could the Four Seasons been thinking? Look how terrible their hotel in Thailand is. These are simply appalling and completely unacceptable accommodations.
http://tourismintelligence.ca/images/new...nd%201.jpg
http://tourismintelligence.ca/images/new...nd%202.jpg
Doesn’t the rest of the world know how Hawaii County is setting the standards for comfortable, safe living? How on earth could these tents be legal elsewhere in the U.S. and around the world? This is truly a mystery! How could the rest of the world be so stupid?


E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.

[DanielP]

What a load of hot air this thread is!

[Bullwinkle]

Makes think of some of my own foibles..... sometimes spending more energy trying to define and avoid things than doing them. - grin

[StillHope]

quote:

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Originally posted by DanielP

What a load of hot air this thread is!

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Wao vs Bob Orts[]..

At first I thought that someone is looking for the practical answer.

Which is : if you have good neighbors you can live in a tent while building.

But that is not the purpose of the thread ...Then what is?

- Withdrawn...

[Wao nahele kane]

If the public’s best interest and the people’s rights is “a load of hot air”… Why don’t we just give full unencumbered power to the government, burn the Constitution, toss out democracy and hang it all up right here and now?

The point boils down to the same legal/constitutional issue regarding the laws requiring licensed plumbers, electricians and architects. One of a municipality’s duties is to promote the general welfare and here we have a classic example of what such a duty means and what happens when it is not honored by a municipality. Hawaii I can say without doubt has the highest per capita of unpermitted homes throughout all the U.S. However; Hawaii does not have the lowest income base in the U.S. Why is this? When the state/county enacts legislation contrary to the best interest of promoting the general welfare, there are natural consequences. The consequences are all those people who avoid the permit process because of the codes that lack sufficient interest to justify their existence, the same applies to codes which would ban selective construction materials and methods without sufficient interest.
So when people would stand against the use of tents by property owners and not adopt them into the code of acceptable structures for residential purposes, they likewise relinquish the capability of regulating the use of tents and tent type buildings. So rather than a person going down to the building department and receiving a permit for their tent structure on their property which would contain an educational sheet and have a basic criteria checklist of basic standards to be met… they simply strike a camp that is either safe or unsafe or they build a structure using a mixture of tent type material and other products that may be safe or unsafe.
Bottom line, these Hawaii codes do not promote the general welfare and ignore the sufficient public interest directives. Since the vast majority of all States don’t have such reckless codes but to the contrary they fully protect the owner builder’s rights and allow unconventional materials use… how is it that these codes can be considered legally justifiable in Hawaii? Where is the sufficient interest in these codes and how are they to promote the general welfare of the public?


E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.

[Bob Orts]

quote:

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Originally posted by KathyH

Also note this is only for Puna ag land, and it will not affect requirements for other zoning and areas.
Interesting they are passing this. Anyone know why?

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Currently, the law has an absolute prohibition on using "tents" as residences (Note UBC defines yurts and similar units as structures so they are classified as a building). People are doing it and enforcements is near impossible on a large scale basis. There is an apparent need to allow people to use a tent based on security and other factors that the Council feels is legitimate.

The Bill met with opposition the first time because the initial goal was to crack the absolute prohibition and would leave the rest of the items up for clarification at another time. That was a concern to the Council because they felt these details needed to be spelled out from the get go. There was also a lot of talk about time lines in that the original bill did not set a maximum time period. There was also talk about geographical limitations. All in all they accepted the rational for the Bill, but couldn't accept it as written.

These items are addressed in Draft 3 of Bill 103. Compare the original bill which removed the prohibition while a house is being constructed to current approved Bill which spells out all details and you’ll see the current Bill left nothing open to misinterpretation. All aspects are addressed.

Based on that the Council agreed it was a legitimate amendment worthy of passage.

WARNING - CONTAINS A VERY UNPOPULAR OPINION
Now, all things aside, there was one other item that is not mentioned in the press or in the sound bites of the elected officials. This Bill had absolutely NO CHANCE IN HELL of passage if it did not restrict the authorization to only Puna District. There was no way any Council Member was going to allow the ghetto'ing of their District with temporary tents and tent people no matter how well the Bill was written. The truth is, this Bill would have passed the first day without any requirements for sanitation, health, safety, or fire codes had it initially limited this to Puna. This Bill establishes that Puna is that "other side of the tracks". Unpopular and as insulting as it may sound, The Council Members of Hawaii County know the truth as to why this bill unanimously passed as now written. I apologize if this offends anyone.

[Wao nahele kane]

There in lay the true crux of the issue and precisely why the court will strike it some-day.
You took it right to the heart of the matter in the final paragraph Bob.

My concern is this; the current legislation promotes the activity rather than regulating it and easing the requirements upon owner builders. So the legislation is too heavy handed and defeats its own purpose promoting the opposite to occur (we’ve the proof of that all around the Big Island). The new legislation will not remedy much at all and perhaps force more people to avoid permits in that they may not feel they can meet the 2 year limit and consequently they may not apply for the permit and they will go ahead without it. Whereas before; the tent code was not enforced. Think about those building via income cash out of pocket... many cannot produce the $75k+ in two years for a modest house. The limitations period should have been in alignment with the permit time regulations.
If we want to see the use of crappie tents dramatically reduced and see many more permitted homes emerge:
What needs to happen is the following; the requirements for licensed plumbers and electricians needs to be removed with respect to the owner performing his or her own work. Only complex and two story structures should require basic engineering approvals with regard to seismic, wind and shear calculations. There should be no requirements to use Architects on single family residential projects.
All nonsensical materials bans need to cease. The IBC should be fully adopted and alternative/experimental projects embraced.
This will promote cutting edge construction methodology, ensure small home owner project completions and maximize the state and counties promotion of the general welfare within this subject matter.


E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.

[Rob Tucker]

You make some good points and I agree with them.

[kimo wires]

This is a heated issue...

I'm building and living on my property.
Personally I wouldn't want to live in a tent while doing this.

I built a temporary structure before I applied for my permit and glad I did. And I Had it noted and submitted with my plans.
Fighting off insects and rodents is easier with solid walls.

In my approved plans from the BD it states that the inspector would determine if Safe and Sanitary conditions are met. That is if the Owner/ builder in living on site.
I assumed that I could be shut down if not.

I know some people who are living in tents (Costco Carports)
I think they're exempt from the code. (Just kidding)
I don't think I could make it in one of those for two years.

I think the BD takes it on a case by case basis now.

I do agree with Wao that it is made very diffucult for owner/builders
legally. And that pushes lots of people to just build unpermitted.

I feel very constrained as to how I can build my own house So I'm sticking to the Plans almost literally to the letter. And I still worry about getting Finaled because of the minor deviations I've made from them.

It's stressful... If I build something else for myself I might not put myself through these hurdles again.
One thing funny I've heard when I tell people I'm building a legal house in Puna, They just say...WOW!