Shower Drive-Hwy 130 traffic light

[james weatherford]

quote:

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Originally posted by KeaauRich

Put me in the anti-roundabout camp. We had lots of them back in DC and they were a nightmare.

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Rich,
What you had in D.C. almost certainly was NOT roundabouts, but traffic circles.

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[Bob Orts]

The increased size may be due in part to a change in traffic engineering for roundabouts. The previous standards were based on the primary use of passenger cars up to vehicles in the WB40 range. However, studies have shown that since WB50's and above are common place on today's roads, engineering of roadways, including roundabouts have to take in consideration the types of vehicles that normally use the roadway.

The alternative is to restrict use of the roundabout during congested periods to only passenger vehicles and those up to WB48. However, Puna has no alternatives, so as it stand now, the designers have to include WB50+ in their designs. That results in a greater radius and wider lanes within the roundabout.

Another consideration is speed. Initially roundabout entry speed were based on WB40's, but when WB50's and above were added to the equation, you have to either increase the radius or lower the speed.

You can get a practical understanding of this by just apply common sense to size when comparing the turning radius of your vehicle compared to the turning radius of a bus, large straight body truck or a tractor trailer.

This is not a pro or con on roundabout but just an explanation as to why all roundabouts on the drawing boards have increased in diameter.

[JWFITZ]

Has it been considered to simply hire someone to direct traffic? For that budget you could hire someone for a very long time. You could be up and running next week.

http://sensiblesimplicity.lefora.com/

[Rob Tucker]

Jay,

Having police direct traffic has been suggested as a short term solution for about $250,000 a year. The intended highway improvements are geared toward the future with construction expected to start in 2014 and likely to take eight years to complete - 2022. The road at that stage needs to be adequate to the existing and projected needs for probably a half century - 2072.

We really have only the here and now to affect the shape and function of the project and live with it long past our lifespans.

I suspect that you feel that substantial growth will not develop or occur (I say this based on earlier comments you have made) and history will tell if you are wrong or right. The planning that is taking place is based, as all highway projects in the country are, on existing rates of growth from our present population.

From my point of view we don't have that much of a population problem at the present - though there is a high rate of fatalities and injuries. The funding available in this go-round will not be available again for a long, long, long time. Love it or hate it the highway is going to change... we hope for the better and work toward that end.

[JWFITZ]

It seems to be that if the projected growth will be there, so should be the revenues. Inversely, if the growth isn't there, there's unlikely to be the need. It seems to me that directing traffic is an elegant short term solution that would work in all possible futures, and could get started immediately saving lives. As well, it sets a good local trend of investing into providing jobs rather than handing development contracts to special interests, something else that I'd see as a good thing.

Believe me I understand there will be change. The question again is what that will new future will appear like. Of course the same dogmatic and unsupported assumptions rule the day. What is it exactly that all this new population is going to do for a living? But I'm not here to stir up trouble but to suggest an immediate solution could be had that may have unrepresented merit.

http://sensiblesimplicity.lefora.com/

[mikewj]

Jay:
Re the suggestion to use humans to direct traffic:
In the SF Bay Area when I commuted by car to San Francisco from the East Bay it would normally take between 5 and 15 minutes to gain access to the Bay Bridge Eastbound after the workday. However, if for some reason the traffic signals were turned off and humans directed traffic the wait time increased considerably. A wait time of 45 minutes was not unusual, sitting in the gas fumes from hundreds of idling vehicles. I suggest this is one area when mechanical means are far superior to human intervention.
With gas in excess of $3.00 a gallon, the cost of several thousand vehicles idling for up to 45 minutes must be a considerable sum. Even in Puna, with it's comparitively minor traffic flow, cost of idling at traffic signals far exceeds the cost of implementing roundabouts in the long term.

[Carey]

This thread reminds me of when we staid at the Hilton in Cairo, near Talaat Harb round-about. We watched in amazement as the traffic wove in an endless stream, all night, thousands of car (each using the typical honking to alert everyone of the merging....)

At the dawn call to prayers, we were looking out as a donkey cart slowing but steadily went the wrong way through this constant motion on the round-about. Several times we were sure there would be a pile up, but the donkey cart & traffic never collided. It was truly amazing & terrifying....

[JWFITZ]

Maybe the reason they shut off the lights as that it was demonstrated that human beings could direct traffic faster than an automated system. But I don't know. It is worth a look. In this case we're not dealing with that level of congestion.

http://sensiblesimplicity.lefora.com/

[JWFITZ]

Each solution has it's pluses and minuses and hidden costs and dangers no doubt. I would say my only experience with roundabouts was in New Zealand a few years back and I have to say they worked very very very well in a country with well maintained vehicles and few large trucks on the road. There was one notable exception, however, which is worth a comment. While I was there we had a typhoon blow through and we received about 18 inches of rain in 24 hours. The roundabouts(two lane) were completely undrivable in such conditions and it largely shut the city down. While rainfall is heavy enough to allow some standing water on the road, the drivers in the outside lane find their view completely obscured by the drivers wash from the inside lane. And I'm not kidding. And that's someplace where nobody has 4wd "aina-mobiles" without mudflaps.

http://sensiblesimplicity.lefora.com/

[Rob Tucker]

For my part I see the whole weight and mechanism of HDOT and the highway construction industry heading for Puna on a predetermined path and schedule. The momentum is huge and indeed a force to be reckoned with. As citizens we have a short term opportunity to try to patty-cake something more aesthetic and sustainable than another road choked with traffic lights that fails when the power is out and is expensive to maintain.

In the course of this event I have tried, unsuccessfully, to get consideration of placing the forest of power poles lining the highway underground. No traction. I seem to be the only one who wants those power lines buried.