More fuel for the fracking debate.....

[Rob Tucker]

Bullwinkle, It may be a minor point but quite some number of people in the are that have complained moved there after the geothermal plant went in twenty years ago. People are building new homes in the area now.

[Bullwinkle]

and the zoning is manufacturing? - no offense

[Rob Tucker]

No offense taken... but I don't get your point. Some manufacturing would be a good idea placed adjacent to the PGV plant.

[Bullwinkle]

exactly - put the car dealers next to geothermal - they'd get along (cheap shot - grin)

nearby residential however may not be compatible. If the officers of the company are making the claim there is no impact to the residents -

They should lead by example and raise their family within their sphere of influence or stop making crazy claims about safety guarantees for the "rubber slipper set" that quote defines carpet bagging 101 (not a big stretch to plantation mentality)...imho



having a dog in the "health and impact" fight so to speak would keep every one honest imho

[ckg]

quote:

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Originally posted by geochem

quote:

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Originally posted by ckg


Not really much upside for Pahoa in my view. The state benefits by feeding Oahu electric needs and probably leasing the underground but this has minimal benefit for Pahoa.

Am I missing something or misinformed?

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ckg, I appreciate the honesty of the statement of your point of view. It is a quite succinct statement of the "problem" - the adverse impacts are confined to the locale of the development but the benefits are more widely spread. And those include: a reduction in the greenhouse gas emissions arising from our current power production process by about 99%; a reduction in total air emissions (CO, SO2, particulates, NOx) of at least 95%; a substantial reduction of our export of $$$ from the island's economy (half a billion annually more or less?); an opportunity to support the local agriculture community with inexpensive process heat (unfortunately, Ormat's corporate culture doesn't include such niceties; one hopes that future development will require such); an overall reduction in the cost of energy to the Big Island economy and, one hopes, a commensurate increase in investment and job opportunities for the island.

You are absolutely correct - all those benefits don't come back to Pahoa; residents of lower Puna will share in those benefits, but won't be the exclusive beneficiaries. Much like the Hilo residents get to experience the air pollution of the oil fired power plants there but Puna gets to share the benefits of the reliable baseload power produced in Hilo. And that's the "problem" - Puna is comfortable with the current (air pollution) burden falling on Hilo residents and the economic disadvantage of high energy costs falling on everyone equally - but those people - Hiloans and the economically disadvantaged - aren't complaining as bitterly about the unfairness of that burden as (some) Puna residents are complaining about any change in how the burdens of power generation and a (somewhat) reliable energy supply are distributed.

ckg, your statement is a very clear articulation, and I'll apologize for using the pejorative term, the NIMBY principle: "why should I accept any added burden that benefits other communities?". My only response is: "those other communities are bearing burdens that support your health, safety, and comfort that you don't currently bear". The old cliche - "we either hang together, or each hang separately" - still has some validity.

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Respectfully,

While I do not dispute (without better information) the less polluting nature under normal operation from Geothermal, couldn't the same be said for a Nuclear plant and with potentially similar outcomes (from a Puna perspective) for safety (obviously no radiation but still the risk of leave your home and don't come back). Both Nuclear power and geothermal could potentially ruin all of Puna in the event of a catastrophic event. Oil does not really have the risk for a whole region where folks could lose their homes and be forced to leave other than those in the extremely immediate area (house behind a plant). I also wonder where the 500 million dollar export of $$$ is coming from? Is that for fuel oil to burn for power for the big island? That seems a bit high but it is part of the electric rates we pay today (dollars shipped out from Hawaii Electric for fuel expense). How has existing geothermal affected consumer rates today? Is that cost reduction you mention a technical "cost reduction" at a penny less per 100kwhr or is it some actual measurable real savings? Being that electric generation is higher here in Hawaii due to burning oil I would think that would make safer alternative generation more economically feasible such as wind power or solar and make Geothermal a huge money saver which to date it is not (please prove me wrong here).

I would be curious to see what independent geologists would say about the impacts to this geologically unstable area and factual risks associated with it.

I thought I read somewhere that the point of more Geothermal is to ship the power off to Oahu. Is that not the case?

If this was actually safe for the area and had significant benefit for the area I would be all for it but really it is neither. Couldn't that NIMBY principle you mention support a context for fracking in the Midwest or the Gulf oil spill. Isn't that all for the greater good as well.
[]

[Wao nahele kane]

Last time I checked, car dealers don't do the manufacturing. They just sell the cars so that's commercial zoning.
Manufacturing falls under industrial zoning.
Carpet Baggers are typically salesmen. Providing electricity to a utility is fairly straight forward, either they provide it or they don't. There's no carpet bagging about it.

- Armed citizens provide security of a free State.

[Rob Tucker]

It is likely that some number of the staff of PGV do live nearby. Meanwhile, if PGV was not there the risks of volcanic emissions still remains. There are natural volcanic vents throughout the area. So should the volcano be moved because there are residences in the area? Dumb question, I know. It is more likely that subdividing the area was a big mistake.... something the CoH refuses to take credit for.

While some are concerned, rightly or wrongly, with PGV others bought land and build ventures like the old Steam Vent Inn where tourists were invited to sit around and breathe the noxious fumes.

As Art Linkletter said: "People are funny."

[Bullwinkle]

ware housing is a good buffer as well - zoning fine points ....

carpet bagging - I'm using the historical reference -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger

"suggesting opportunism and exploitation by the outsiders" a little over the top, colonialism another good adjective - but if the shoe fits.... grin

[Guest]

The pace of life could be looked at as a factor out here in Puna?. See the folks getting this possible future geothermal energy (Oahu)have chosen a life style that requires a lot more electricity. There railroads and high rises may use more electricity than say someone who bought here wanting to maybe learn how to be more self-sufficient. This area has been told to go solar, wind, even geothermal. So it seems wrong to have the future geothermal plants or fracking near the folks who use the least, and so far from the one's who need the most?. Would Puna want an under ground cable put in our ocean, over saddle just to turn on their computer's and see us -----?.I don't think AN UNDER GROUND CABLE would be at the top of the priority list like it is now. A lot of the folks out here are not trying to keep up with the JONES, they are trying to live a less hectic, and environmental friendly lifestyle that may include a smaller portion of what other's NEED. Let's give the real living community choices and options, If this is the direction Puna is going. Making right for a couple generations here now seems fair for the GIFT Pele apparently can give. For what was it 500,000 year's I read. This is reminding me of the poor folks in west Virginia who have watched their mountains disappear, rivers be polluted, hunting habits changed forever. We need to unite and stop this destruction of our homelands, come together in a more self-sufficient effort who may one day not need ELECTRICITY or CANCER. thank you.

[Wao nahele kane]

Sorry Bullwinkle,
Other than being an outsider and making an investment for a probable return, I see no similarities. Using your considered aspect comparative we could call all investors carpetbaggers. Does this mean you're opposed to capitalism?

If you're an investor, you look for opportunities to invest. If there's a hotspot and a demand for something that the hotspot can produce, you invest. Do you make a profit? Yes and that's the point. If you have several investments; must you live by each one? I don't recall any such requirement for investment though political representation requires something like that. That's part of simple capitalism. Is there potential danger involved? Yes, as there is with everything. The degree of potential environmental dangers and damages are of the most miniscule relative to other 24/7 365day a year energy sources. For those trumpeting nuclear like dangers - it's time to put down the fizzy lifting drinks and come on back down to the ground. This is about boiling water on naturally heated volcanic rock. This isn't about nuclear fuel rods boiling water, there's no rational similarities between the two heat sources other than heat. The water that contacts the hot rock is the same type of water that naturally touches the hot rock from rainfall and ground absorption and then comes out as steam and stinky air in all the steam vents around the island. This cockamamie talk about the effects on "water quality" are another fat farce from fizzy lifting drink land. There's but one and only one legitimate complaint... the noise. Oh well, invest in some good ear protection, go move back near a freeway or ask that noise walls be installed around the noise source. Yes... that's right, if people focused on the only legitimate nuisance, they could probably get it fixed. Imagine that.

- Armed citizens provide security of a free State.