biodiesel from cane

[oink]

What happened to this? It seemed like such a great idea: http://discovermagazine.com/2003/may/featoil
Edit: I found their home: http://www.changingworldtech.com/

I still think hydrogen cars would be perfect for Hawaii. Power comes from the expanded geothermal or wind farms. Long power lines are not needed as it just goes to the adjoining plant that cracks water into hytrogen which is then shipped by truck to the distributors.

Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.

[Bob Orts]

quote:

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Originally posted by gtill
Plus there will be such an outcry from the world about using our food supply for Oil

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This whole thing about food shortages or higher prices due to bio-fuel production is more propaganda than facts.

quote:

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Originally posted by james weatherford
A promising, but not-yet-if-ever commercialized technology is cellulose alcohol for ethanol.

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As is always the case in alternative energy, two university experimental projects have been moved to commercial production. Not surpassingly, the amount of energy used to produce ethanol was minimal, far lower than conventional ethanol production or bio-diesel. One key component was the ability of using the cellulose/trash bio-mass as the very fuel to produce the steam. Current estimations are that once fully operational, they can produce ethanol for half the current production cost. Of course the raw product, Switchgrass, played a big part towards success.

[james weatherford]

Easy does it gtill, with this:
"Burning a field does no harm to the soil or the plants in it."

Pili grass grows back. But that in no way means that other plants or animals or soil microbes are not harmed.
'Slash and burn' has been used for a few millenia -- where and when there were low populations along with lots of space, and the areas burnt were used for a few years and then abandoned for several years to regrow and restore nutrients.

Soybeans and corn: I am not familiar with the aforementioned 'task force' -- got citation/reference?
As it happens, where I survived living until I was old enough to leave (Western Kentucky), soybeans and corn are the major crops (with tobacco close behind).
Indeed, as gtill indicates, these can be very hard on the soil -- corn takes lots of nutrients and soybeans do not protect the soil from heavy rains and erosion. There is probably some potential for specialty crops of these two: for example, corn chips (not at all the same corn used for ethanol and livestock feed nor 'sweet corn') and tofu (not at all the same soybean as used for cooking oil or biodiesel). Both are annuals, requiring reseeding every year.

A few years ago, when I first heard of interest in the islands for growing biodiesel crops, I was concerned that soybeans or sunflowers would be used (on Maui the trials were done and failed miserably). But, tree crops are (thankfully) now recognized as more sustainable.

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[allngood]

Food price and supply starts with corn, soybeans, and wheat. Demand of corn for ethanol production is driving the market today. This demand is setting historical high prices for these crops.
What that means:
1)Farmers choose to plant more corn. One acre lost to corn, is one acre less of beans, tomatoes or whatever.
2)When corn or grains are cheap, farmers will feed it to livestock. With record highs, they sell the corn for other uses. Means less cows, chickens, pigs. Higher meat prices.
3)Grains have always been one of USA leading exports. Keeping it home for ethanol, means less to others around the world. Impacts our balance of trade.
4)Some countries that export grains will protect themselves and stop exporting.
5) Biggest losers will be third world countries that need to import grains to feed their people.
6) We will see higher prices and temporary shortages now and again.

This is not intended to be all gloom and doom, but expect to adjust your food budget.

Here is a link that explains it much better than I can.
http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/2008/Update69.htm

[Bob Orts]

I guess the most important question that needs to be ask concerning bio-fuels is:

What are we trying to achieve?

Is it creating fuel from something organic?
Cutting our dependence on foreign oil?
Eliminating fossil petroleum?
Developing a renewable liquid based fuel?
Going back to horse and buggy?

It seems there are too many conflicting objectives and everyone looks to find fault in what is being done because it doesn’t fit their view of a benefit.

[allngood]

Good questions Bob,
I have assumed we are trying to grow our fuel to lessen dependence on oil. The objective is first rate.

It is my opinion that growing fuel will not work. I think the evidence of food price increases and shortages already prove the point.

I understand about everyone having a different agendas, but for me food should not be compromised. A basic need for life.

I would vote for solar, wind, ocean wave, geothermal, higher tax on gas to lower consumption, higher tax on low mileage cars, and whatever it takes to get folks to conserve more.

It is sad and selfish that we as a country use so much energy to drive our cars, that a basic need of life (esp for the poor) is compromised in the US and around the world.

[james weatherford]

Excellent way to approach the issue, Bob.

Power. That is the objective. Power to lift, roll, and move what a human is too weak to do without injury. That is a basic objective for us in planting oil palm to produce biodiesel.
I abhor machines, actually.
However, my tractor with front-end loader can make compost in quality and quantity, not to mention quicker without worker injury, many times greater than I can even with help. That compost makes the sweetest tasting bananas! Those bananas provide our bodies Power.

...to be discerned from the illusion of Power in the empty space between the ears of the rip-roaring fools passing at 65MPH in the shoulder lane driving SUV's and never-done-an-honest-day's-work fake-trucks with oversize tires.

James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park

[Bob Orts]

For years the battle cry has been to lessen our dependence on foreign oil, but it seems that is no longer the concern.

The reason I asked was because last Friday, I was involved in an incident that left me wanting to sell my vehicle and buy the biggest gas guzzling behemoth I could find.

I was filling up my truck when I was heckled by some guy in a Prius. He was accusing me of causing war in the world and causing the US to be a slave to the middle east because of the vehicle I was driving. So I asked him what was his mpg and he said about 50. I told him I averaged an adjusted mpg of only 17 but I still used less foreign oil than he did. Well, you should have heard what came out of his mouth. I explained that over 1,000 miles I used 63 gallons of fuel while he only used 20. But still I used less foreign oil because I use E-85 (15% petroleum, 85% ethanol), that means I only used 10 gallons of petroleum gas while he still used about 18 (90% petroleum, 10% ethanol). His response would take the color out of a rainbow.

I though that was that but he said that doesn’t matter because it's not about foreign oil but really about the green house gases. To make a long story short, he went through a half dozen reasons and each time I dispelled a rumor critical to his argument, it changed to something else. I finally stopped him and said that my goal was to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and my vehicle accomplishes it, unlike his foreign petroleum guzzling marshmallow.

So, that's what promoted me to ask what was the goal of bio-fuels production.

As for the issue of food, well even that’s full of gross misleading statements on all sides to the point nobody can make out facts from fiction.

[Bob Orts]

Oh, by the way James, I just got my exempt tax permit this morning in the mail so I'll be firing up the still tomorrow to see if I can make my first batch of ethanol. Hope to get 185 proof, but will settle for 160 since I’m using corn initially (can get it cheap one state over) but will try some other crops as things progress.