HELLco's Third World power system failure

[Durian Fiend]

"Those Barrett Jackson type collectormobiles will require $100+ per gallon fuel eventually, no?"

Eventually the "dirty" fuels will be stigmatized and further taxed to subsidize whatever agenda our masters will be pushing on us.  Like tobacco, it will be increasingly taxed and made more difficult to obtain until most people have no choice but to give up using it.  But considering Europe's dramatic 180 degree turn back towards fossil fuels in the last year, I don't think it will be anytime soon.

Europe’s 180 degree turn? Ah, no.  Sure, lots of talk about that happening. 
But in fact 2022 was the first year Europe as a whole had more electricity generated from wind and solar than gas and coal. It was said that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine turbocharged the green transition, or whatever they’re calling it.

Like tobacco, fossil fuels will become increasingly more expensive  but still widely used for several more decades-at least for transportation.

['elepaio]

@HOTPE, Is your embarrassing post how you want to best represent yourself and your stance ?

[MarkP]

I am drawn to the simple glazed box water heater. I have to fight the impulse that since a solar thermal collector is something like 80% efficient and solar PV is something like 20% efficient solar thermal has to be something like 4x as good, right? For a stand-alone system it probably is. I, however, have already bought all the MPPT charge controllers, batteries, inverters, propane water heaters, and generators. My job now is to keep all these assets profitably employed. I have a large 119 gallon water heater with 4,500 watt elements. I have bought 1,500 watt elements to replace them. If I now buy 1,500 - 2,000 watts of extra PV capacity the system as a whole will easily run that water heater for 4 hrs a day on any decent day, more on exceptional days. That will keep me in hot water most of the time. On bad days I will burn a little propane heating water and a little gas running the generator, but the savings in gas and generator maintenance from the extra solar PV will more than make up for burning some propane.

I selected 1,500 watt elements because I anticipate it working well with my 4,000 watt inverter. I bought a current switch that will shut off the water heater when it sees a pre-set A/C current draw (other than the water heater). All the A/C load wires other than the water heater go through the hole in that switch. So the charge controller turns on a 12 vdc control circuit when the array voltage goes above something like 95 volts which it does when the batteries are satisfied. This control circuit powers a 240 vac relay that turns the water heater on but the normally closed current switch is part of the 12vdc circuit so if the inverter has other loads (I am thinking around 1,000 watts worth) the water heater gets turned off until those other loads go below the threshold.

If this all works I should rack up several hours per day of water heating without me having to pay attention or do anything except on cloudy days when I would have been crying anyways. Even then I will burn less gas in the generator and no more propane in the water heater.

['elepaio]

We have 3" , black epoxy primered pcv zig zaging across the roof under some harvested, sliding glass doors + a separate glazed tank too. Way too hot without mixing.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

Is your embarrassing post how you want to best represent yourself and your stance ?

It did represent an example of embarrassing posts didn’t it?

[leilanidude]

@MarkP - i have a standard style solar water heating system. Two, 2'x8' panels on the roof and a 120 gallon tank under the house which has the big elements for heating, but because of how little hot water the two of use, I don't even have the breaker turned on for it. I simply let the sun do all of our water heating. If I recall, the tank gets up to around 135 degrees, so after blending in cold, we can get about 4 days of hot water with even no sun. I can always manually flip the breaker if for some reason we need mote hot water.

[MarkP]

Leilanidude:

Do you also have a solar PV system? I do and am so heavily invested it changes the calculus of which way I should go in terms of the cost to go from where I am to where I can have solar hot water. Also, I am in EdenRoc not Leilani Estates so there are more clouds. This may at first seem like I should be even more likely to chose solar thermal for its efficiency but the other consideration is that buying more solar PV is worth it for me just to supply my electrical needs on bad days. This leaves me with excess electrical capacity a lot of the time.

This almost seems like I am criticizing your input. Please do not take offense. I am just thinking out loud.

Another observation is that if a new solar thermal system costs $5,000, a new solar PV system to heat water costs $10,000, but I, having already spent more than that, can add more panels and get where I need to go for an incremental cost of $3,000 then someone starting from scratch should buy a new solar thermal system while someone like me should buy more panels and do everything with solar PV, even with a resistance electric heater. If you use a heat pump water heater that could sway things even more in favor of solar PV. I am very much intrigued by heat pumps but it is really hard to beat the cost of the water heater I already have, the almost insignificant maintenance it requires, and the extremely high dependability. Every time I think "For only $1,000 more I could get a heat pump" I stop and think that $1,000 of panels would sure be nice in the depth of winter in Eden Roc.

[terracore]

My setup is similar to Leilanidude. I don't remember how much I paid for it because tax credits and energy rebates paid the majority of it. I remember calculating the payback period being 3 years. Likewise, I don't normally have the breaker on. I don't need the elements turning on when the sun is about to come out and heat it for free.

During the few times per year that we do need to turn the breaker on, we only need to run it for about 5 minutes before getting in the shower or whatever. It's not like when I lived in Alaska and the water going into the water heater was 38 degrees and it took forever to get hot. Figure that the water in the tank is still going to be around 100 degrees when it's "too cold" and the water coming from the catchment tank is 70 or whatever, there isn't a huge spread in temp difference. Giving the water heater a 5 minute head start is all it needs to effectively be an "on demand" hot water heater. And then after the shower, kill the power to the breaker again.

The solar water heater does actually kick on and create some hot water when there is no sun, depending on what type of cloud cover we have. Obviously it doesn't make as much as quickly as in sunlight but it can add a day or two before we run out.

The solar hot water heater can also be turned up so the water lasts longer. It supposedly shortens the life of the tank, but if one knew dark weather was coming they could turn the temperature way up to bank it, and then turn it back down to protect the life of the tank. I have turned ours up to 160 degrees for the purpose of filling a utility sink with hot water for scalding turkeys, and then of course turn it back down after butcher day. I try to keep it set about 130 during summer and 140 during winter but there's been a few years I forgot to turn it down for summer.

[Obie]

"We have 3" , black epoxy primered pcv zig zaging across the roof under some harvested, sliding glass doors + a separate glazed tank too. Way too hot without mixing."

I would like to see this contraption but I would really like you to have someone write a scientific explanation of how it could possibly work because it bends the laws of thermodynamics !!!

[MarkP]

I don't see a problem with the thermodynamics. The stored volume is pretty low and the materials are not the best for simultaneous high temperature and high pressure but if it works for him that's all that matters.